What Is Medical Freedom?

Dr Clayton Baker MD, explores the concept of medical freedom, noting the lack of a standardized definition. He observes that opponents often resort to discrediting tactics, ranging from associating it with far-right militias to labelling it as a ploy by grifters selling snake oil.

Clayton delves into the legal aspects, examining cases like Florida’s legislation against mandatory vaccines. He highlights the challenge of unravelling legislative decisions and questions opponents’ reluctance to engage in rational arguments, suggesting it may stem from a lack of convincing ideology and financial motivations. Clayton emphasizes the importance of foundational documents like the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights in shaping the discourse around bodily autonomy and individual liberties.

Clayton Baker is an American internal medicine physician with a quarter century in clinical practice. Trained at Harvard and McGill universities, he has held numerous academic medical appointments, and his work has appeared in many journals, including the Journal of the American Medical Association and the New England Journal of Medicine. From 2012 to 2018 he was Clinical Associate Professor of Medical Humanities and Bioethics at the University of Rochester.

Since the start of the COVID-19 era, Clayton has become an outspoken advocate for medical freedom, civil liberties, and the protection of children. He writes for Brownstone Institute and American Thinker, he has provided expert witness opinions on multiple COVID-19-related lawsuits, and he has spoken out publicly against COVID-19-related abuses of patients’ and children’s rights in numerous venues, including legislatures, school boards, and crowds of over 1000 people.

I hope you enjoy the conversation.

Ahmad (00:00.61)
So Clayton, my brother from another mother, dude, I love you. And I’m really glad you’re back on the show because I’ll tell you why. Like I’ve only had a handful of people back twice. Literally, I think you’re the third one. And the reason why I’m really glad is you were one of my earliest guests, like way, way back when I didn’t have that many followers and a few thousand people got to listen to you. I mean, my audience has really grown since then.

And I just think it’s so important to hear from you because, dude, I just love you. You’re such an ethical man, nevermind doctor, and just so full of common sense, dude. Like, I mean, that’s so rare these days. So I’m really glad you’re back. And you know, you’ve written quite a few articles for the Brownstone Institute. Most recent one was about medical freedom. And yeah, I think we should kick off.

I mean, you know what it’s like in medicine, we’re all about definitions, aren’t we? So how would you define medical freedom?

Clayton Baker (01:07.423)
Well, so just to kind of, if you wanted me just kind of take you through the article a little bit, I felt that there really was a lack of, I felt there was really a lack of any kind of sensible definition or just kind of unifying definition of the term. And I felt, like you said, as a physician, you feel like you want a definition. When you make a diagnosis, you want the diagnosis to be

Ahmad (01:13.39)
Sure, sure.

Ahmad (01:25.506)

Clayton Baker (01:37.111)
diseases that are clinically diagnosed, like say many mental health problems like depression, you need diagnostic criteria and so on. So we’re very definitional people by the way that we just think and kind of are trained to think. And also one of my favorite quotes, and I’m a big quote guy I’m afraid to say, is from Socrates, or is attributed to Socrates, where he says the beginning of…

beginning of wisdom is the definition of terms. And people think, well, that sounds like something a school teacher would say, but having taught medical students and residents and undergrads and graduate students over the years, I’ve really stressed this to people again and again, because if you’re talking about one, if we think we’re talking about the same thing and we’re not.

You know, it’s like the blind men and the elephant, right? The one guy grabs the tail and he says, an elephant’s like a rope. And the other one grabs, wraps his arms around the leg and says, no, he’s like a tree trunk and so on. And so if you, it’s almost worse if you think you’re talking about the same thing and you’re not, than if you’re just talking about two separate things and you both know it, because you just constantly are confusing the matter. And so…

Ahmad (02:29.283)

Ahmad (02:48.852)

Clayton Baker (02:52.947)
A lot of people are talking about medical freedom, so I took the time to look through and say, is there any kind of an attempt at least a good working definition? I don’t claim to have the final word on something like this. And what I found was there really wasn’t any sort of standard definition that I could find. There’s a lot of things that hint at what people mean, and there’s similarities, but different people emphasize different aspects of it. And then of course, those opposed to it,

Ahmad (03:09.794)

Clayton Baker (03:22.559)
you know, just basically in my estimation have been really fairly intellectually dishonest about the whole enterprise. They started out by saying there was an article in the Washington Post way back in 2021 when the vaccines first came out saying that this was basically a far right militia, you know, in ploy by, you know, these, uh, you know, gun toting.

Ahmad (03:24.161)

Clayton Baker (03:52.471)
far right-wing white supremacists in the United States. And that didn’t really catch on, I don’t think, because it was patently absurd. And then a year later, one of our legacy left-wing publications called The Nation, which has been around for many decades, published an article that I found about

Ahmad (04:16.023)

Clayton Baker (04:20.643)
basically saying that it’s a bunch of hucksters who are trying to sell snake oil and trying to draw people away from conventional medicine in favor of supplements and all this kind of thing. Which, you know, is grifters. Yeah, exactly, grifters. Now, you know, nevermind that the grifters are all poor as church mice and the, you know, the people hanging, and the people hanging on to pharma are.

Ahmad (04:30.574)

Ahmad (04:40.802)
Tell me about it.

Clayton Baker (04:46.559)
Lace, you know lining their pockets with millions, but you know, of course that again that just shows how Intellectually dishonest the whole thing is and as I mentioned in the article, you know You take a whole other article and a whole other Time with you to really go through all of the psychological projection involved in those kind of definitions but

Ahmad (05:07.458)

Clayton Baker (05:09.291)
When I finally started to look at people who have at least a neutral or positive view of the concept of medical freedom, I saw that it was a little bit all over the place. You know, some of them, for example, Florida and, you know,

Ron DeSantis had declared his state the medical freedom state, and they had passed some legislation that had supported things that I think fit with medical freedom, like telling folks that they would not require or mandate vaccines within the state. He was going to outlaw gain of function research in the state, which I thought was a very interesting additive to that, and so on. So there are three or four laws, and they

they were a varying sort of strength. But again, there was no unifying sort of concept to it. And there was no sort of preamble that said, here’s what the underlying principles are. And as you know, when you look at laws, and I’m no lawyer and I’m no legislator, but when you look at laws, it can be very difficult to kind of go backwards and find out exactly what the concepts were behind those decisions. You know, it’s a sausage making machine. And, you know, when you…

get a piece of sausage, it’s hard to go back and say exactly what the ingredients were that you started out with sometimes. And so, you know, I tried to sort of as I said.

Ahmad (06:33.674)
Sometimes you don’t want to know what was in that sausage.

Clayton Baker (06:37.439)
That’s true too, but in this case, that was kind of the exercise. So I’m trying to put the sausage back into, take it back through the grinder, and that’s hard to do. And then I also looked at, of all places, New York City, there was a new political party in the United States, very small, very tiny, but enough to get people on the ballot in New York City, for example, for the legislatures there.

And it called itself the Medical Freedom Party. And if you look closely at their, they actually did a decent job of clearly outlining what their priorities were. And they really were focused on bodily autonomy. They basically borrowed from our Declaration of Independence and said…

Ahmad (07:21.335)
Were they all former Ku Klux Klan members? Like they sound like a really far right militia group.

Clayton Baker (07:25.735)
No, no. Well, this is New York City. These are people in Manhattan. So they would have been found out, I think, a long time before if that had been the case. Yeah, but you know, it’s reasonable to point that out because you just realize how, again, and I didn’t mean to dismiss opponents of the concept, but no one that I could find was saying, Ahmad, they weren’t saying, look,

Ahmad (07:32.862)
I’m just joking. I’m just joking. I’m just joking, dude.

Clayton Baker (07:52.999)
We just don’t believe that personal autonomy is more important than herd protection. We just believe that the herd is more important, that we’re basically herd animals. I don’t know, you could come up with some concept that at least would be rational and plausible, even if ultimately I probably wouldn’t disagree with it. And you could say we just don’t think this is the priority. We think that the collective is more important than the individual. But

I can’t find anyone that makes that rational argument. It’s just discredit them, call them this, if this doesn’t work, call them that, if that doesn’t work, call them the third thing. And the intellectual dishonesty is so, it’s just so absolutely right up in your face. And I think it’s deliberate because for two reasons. Number one, because I don’t think there is a convincing argument, rational argument.

Ahmad (08:42.179)

Clayton Baker (08:48.579)
The rational argument would be just what I said, as best I can come up with, that the collective is more important than the individual. And what does that sound like? That sounds like statism, that sounds like totalitarianism, that sounds like communism, and that still doesn’t sell with individuals very well. So they can’t say that. The second thing is that these folks aren’t even ideologically based. I think many of them are just on the take.

Ahmad (09:06.548)
No it doesn’t.

Clayton Baker (09:18.687)
And if you’re on the take, the last thing you want to do is to get into an argument that is based on facts. You just call names and you just add homonym and you just try to obfuscate and muddy the waters and all that kind of thing. So, you know, I hate to say that, I really do, but that’s what I found was that I just could not find anyone putting forth a cogent and honest argument.

in favor of say a collective over an individual in this case. So what am I supposed to do? I just did my best with what I had. And so I tried to construct something that was a, excuse me, I got something, I’ve done something to my screen here. I want to see you. I don’t want to see whatever I’ve got in front of me right now. There we are. And so anyway, so that’s what I was, that’s what I ended up having to work with. And so,

Ahmad (09:52.824)

Clayton Baker (10:13.975)
To get back to your question, I said, okay, what seem to be the components of this medical freedom movement that maybe we can put together? And the best I could come up with was, there was a lot of references, and again, I’m an American, so our American founding documents kind of stand out in a lot of people’s minds, particularly when it comes to individual liberty. You know, we’re…

Ahmad (10:39.81)

Clayton Baker (10:39.847)
even to this day, were brought up that this is the land of the free and the home of the brave kind of thing. So, I said to myself, there’s elements in, for example, the statements that this political party put together that are drawn directly from the Declaration of Independence, specifically the reference of inalienable rights, life, liberty, pursuit of happiness. And they said that bodily autonomy should follow under that same kind of…

into that same group, because if you don’t have bodily autonomy, how do you have life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness? And so I looked at that document. And then I also looked at the Bill of Rights, because the Bill of Rights is a very interesting document. It’s obviously a supremely important document, but it’s, I think that when putting it, I’m oversimplifying tremendously, and again, I’m not, I’m kind of an amateur historian. I’m not a professional one by any means, but

Ahmad (11:15.861)

Clayton Baker (11:38.591)
When the Constitution was put together, when they finally agreed upon it, they immediately passed 10 amendments to the Constitution with its ratification, which is kind of odd in itself, but they basically said these are 10 things that the government can’t do to you. And those were, in my best understanding, stipulations that a lot of people said, we’re not going to…

prove a federal government that takes away the state’s rights unless these things are codified right from the start. That you can’t do this, you can’t do this, you can’t do this. And most of the rights, there’s nothing in there saying you’re guaranteed a universal basic income. There’s nothing in there that states what you’re guaranteed to have. The government will provide for you. There’s little to none of that. What there is the government won’t do

A, the government won’t do B, the government won’t do C, the government won’t do D, and so on down the line. And so their negative rights, they knew.

Ahmad (12:43.246)
Because they knew, they knew, they knew that governments always want to take more and more and more. And they knew, they were smart cookies.

Clayton Baker (12:55.563)
They were pretty prescient. There were a couple of things in my estimation that they didn’t think through well enough or didn’t pass, but they got it awfully right. And it’s a tremendous accomplishment. Now, a lot of it is directly borrowed from British common law, but what they did was they codified it absolutely clearly in this Bill of Rights. So it’s absolutely explicitly stated.

So that, and this is really where, when cases go to the Supreme Court and so on, more often than not, I shouldn’t say more often than not, I don’t know if it’s 51% or not, but very, very often, it’s really, does this law pass muster, or does this court decision pass muster with the Bill of Rights? And ultimately, that’s our final bulwark against just our rights being taken away from us.

And the crazy thing about the whole COVID era was they essentially used a medical emergency so-called, never mind that they created it in the first place, you know, the US government created it in the first place, to basically say these rights are temporarily null and void because you’re all going to die if we don’t suspend your

It’s like Abraham Lincoln temporarily suspending the right of habeas corpus at the beginning of the civil war, which I, I’m not a historian, but I think was wrong, you know? Um, but, uh, anyway, um, uh, that’s what we’re, that’s what we’re dealing with. Is it basically was a way as an American, I see it first and foremost as a way to circumvent the bill of rights. I have fundamental human rights and you took them away from me.

by just saying they’re null and void for now. What we’re bringing back to you is when we see it, when it’s safe, but for now they’re null and void.

Ahmad (14:57.022)
Yeah, I don’t think the founding fathers had that in mind when they set it all out. It wasn’t like, this is the law and these are your rights, except when there’s a medical emergency, except when there’s a war, except when there’s this crisis, except when there’s a flood or a tornado. I mean, it doesn’t work. It’s either there or it isn’t. And that whole argument, I just think was absolute hogwash. It was a joke. I mean, can I just say, going back to your medical freedom, can I just give you my take on it?

Clayton Baker (15:26.431)
I’d love to hear it.

Ahmad (15:26.486)
confused because a lot of people think, yeah, medical freedom, patients should have freedom of medical access, that could be one, freedom to have medical access, freedom to have choice. It might be medical freedom for doctors and nurses to speak out and say what they want. It might be that individuals are not punished for the choices that they make. I mean, it can mean so many things. I think fundamentally, medical freedom is enshrining

and making sure that medical ethics is never violated. And we know about medical ethics because we spoke about that in our first podcast about informed consent, first do no harm, bodily autonomy, no malfeasance and justice. Those are the key ones. So medical ethics and medical freedom, as a patient, you should have autonomy, as a clinician, you should have autonomy.

and you should not be querished or punished either as a patient or a clinician for the choices that you make. I mean, I think that would be a good starting point. What do you think?

Clayton Baker (16:37.195)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that you mentioned some of the things that ultimately I kind of came up with there. And I would just, there’s one kind of favorite, or favorite, but topic that typically comes up when I speak with people about this, and you really hit on this very well yourself. I would just wanna stress this. You know, I had a discussion,

Ahmad (16:44.105)
Oh, that’s good.

Clayton Baker (17:06.175)
early on in the whole COVID era with a guy that I knew was a cardiologist, bright guy, very well liked by his patients. He had recently retired just before COVID from clinical practice and was working in the insurance industry. But I always thought very highly of this guy. I thought he was intelligent. Patients liked him, spent a lot of time with patients. I think he was a good guy. But I think he was completely bought and completely sold on this notion that this was this, you know, black plague.

that was gonna kill half the population kind of thing. And we were discussing, we were standing in Home Depot, which is, I don’t know if you’re familiar with Home Depot, but it’s a big gigantic hardware store, big box hardware store. And we’re standing there and we’re talking about masking and lockdowns and so on. This was after the lockdowns had been released. Although Home Depot always was open because Home Depot was essential, okay? So you’d go to the grocery store, you could go to the Home Depot, but you couldn’t go to the corner hardware store anyway.

Ahmad (17:43.446)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Clayton Baker (18:04.699)
And I said, you know, because no one catches COVID at Home Depot. You only catch it at the little True Value down the street, you know, this kind of stuff. And when you’re very skeptical, very, you know, I don’t know what the right word is. I don’t know what the adjective is. But if you’re someone a little more like me, you’re saying, wait a minute, either the Home Depot is safe or it’s not. And if the Home Depot is safe, then the corner hardware store is safe. And if the corner hardware store is not safe, then the Home Depot is not safe.

Ahmad (18:13.296)
Yeah, exactly.

Clayton Baker (18:34.187)
So you’re putting this corner hardware store out of business and you’re giving Home Depot its market share and you don’t care, you know? So I knew right away this was BS because if it’s really gonna kill a third of the population, then you shouldn’t be going to Home Depot. Right? I mean, what did Ferguson say? 3%. If it’s gonna kill one out of every 33 people, then close down the Home Depot.

but you leave the Home Depot open, you leave the liquor store open, you leave the strip bars open. I mean, they left the strip bars open. They were essential in where I was. And you know, you’re, and I only know that by reputation. I did not go to check that fact out just for the record. But, but that being the case, but that being the case, you know, honestly, you know, if you have any sense of healthy skepticism, in my opinion, you say, this is nonsense.

Ahmad (19:14.69)
Sure sure

Clayton Baker (19:29.987)
This is total nonsense. How does anyone fall for this stuff? And yet the overwhelming majority of people fell for it, so Klein and Sinker. So anyway, I’m talking to this guy and I’m saying exactly what you said just now. I said, this directly conflicts with the Bill of Rights. I have a right to assemble, I have a right to worship, I have a right to seek employment, and I have a right to provide for my family, et cetera, et cetera.

Oh well, they didn’t know about epidemics. And I looked him right in the face and I said, do you realize how ignorant, and this is what I said, and I don’t think he liked it, but that’s okay, I said, do you realize how ignorant you sound? I said, Thomas Jefferson had six kids and only one of them reached full maturity. Two of them died of whooping cough. His wife had smallpox, her health was ruined, she died in childbirth a few years later. George Washington had smallpox.

Benjamin Rush, who was a physician, who was one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence, years later after, he went over and got the actual Jenner vaccination, because all they had in the United States was inoculation, which was much more dangerous. These guys knew exactly what was going on, and they all had undergone personal tragedies. They’d all lost family members, children. You know, typhoid would come through town every couple of years and scare the bejesus out of people.

But they didn’t shut down society. There’s nothing in the Bill of Rights that says, unless there’s an epidemic coming through town, there’s nothing. And they knew more, even after COVID, they lived this much more really and much more harshly and much more brutally than we ever did. And they still said no. And they knew enough that one of them’s going over to get the first vaccination ever in history. So they know exactly what’s going on and they lived it and died it. And this…

Ahmad (20:57.146)

Ahmad (21:14.15)

Clayton Baker (21:24.207)
non, this person who I think has got a head on his shoulders is just spouting ignorant nonsense. It’s really disappointing. When people get a little bit scared or when they buy into the concept, everything goes out the window it seems. And it’s just, it’s really, it’s disheartening.

Ahmad (21:44.086)
Mate, 100% fear is the mind killer, kills critical thinking. You were saying, you know, about yourself and you know, how to describe yourself. I think you’re a critical thinker. That’s what the problem is. And you didn’t succumb to fear. You know, another interesting thing, I had a podcast with Roman, I can’t pronounce his name, Prinske, he’s the author of Dissolving Illusions. And he said actually, you know, George Washington died of vene-section. He had a cold or a flu and they bled him to death.

And anyway, he did all the charts. He went to Yale University, got all the data and showed that all these diseases, whooping cough and diphtheria, all dipped down and were plateauing right at the bottom. And that’s when they all introduced vaccines. And actually the biggest drop was caused by clean water, sanitation, good food, all that kind of stuff. It’s amazing. Anyway, going back to strip clubs, you ever been to a strip club?

Clayton Baker (22:35.175)
Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

Clayton Baker (22:42.001)
No, it honestly happened.

Ahmad (22:44.45)
Can I tell you something? I’ve been once and I think I know why they kept them open because the overwhelming stench of perfume would definitely kill COVID. It would definitely kill COVID. So once, you’re not gonna believe this. You actually won’t believe this. The listeners will not believe this. I was studying for my consultant exam. It was 2008. It was winter. It was cold. The coffee shop closed at 10 o’clock.

And my friend and I were really in the middle of studying and we’ve only got a few days left before the exam. And we wanted to carry on studying and we were like, where are we gonna go? And on that road was a very famous strip club next to the hospital as well, believe it or not, University College London Hospital, look it up Spearman Rhino, it’s on the same street, literally around the block. And he went, why don’t we go to the strip club? I went, there’s no way I’m going in the strip club. He went, look, it’s warm, we can get some drinks and we’ll be able to study.

I went, it’s a strip club. He went, it doesn’t matter. We’ll just go in there and we’ll just buy some drinks and carry on studying. So we went in and the perfume was overwhelming. It was awful. And we started studying. We ordered some, you know, in those days I used to drink diet coke and whatnot. I don’t anymore for a long time, thank God. And so I’m drinking my drinks and I’m reading my books and textbooks and studying. And these girls are coming up to us trying to peel us away from the books.

And we were saying, no, we’re studying for this exam. And then it turns out one of them is a lawyer student, one’s a philosophy student. They’re all students and they all understood why we wanted to study. That was my one time in a strip club. Yeah, they did actually. They were like, they were very impressed. It was funny. They first of all came over to do the whole kind of sales pitch thing. But when they realized we were quite serious and we were studying, they left us alone. It was very bizarre. Anyways, I spent an hour there, studied.

Clayton Baker (24:14.437)
Did they leave you alone?

Clayton Baker (24:31.798)
That is a strange experience. That’s a great story. I don’t know exactly how to respond. That’s a great story.

Ahmad (24:36.682)
I’ll tell you one thing. I are you getting all hot and bothered now? I mean, I’ll tell you one thing. I don’t find any appeal to it. The idea of having to pay women and to do just, I don’t know. It’s weird. Very weird. Anyway, I did pass the exam. I did. I did pass the exam. Oh, yes. So not that kind of happy ending anyway.

Clayton Baker (24:51.828)
It is. Good. So happy ending.

Ahmad (25:05.586)
Moving on, let’s talk about medical freedom. I thought I’d just have a break from all this seriousness.

Clayton Baker (25:09.475)
Medical freedom, okay. All right, good. So what I came up with when I tried to put all of this together was something that I think I put together a short version that hopefully would be all encompassing but brief enough that it’s somewhat comprehensive but memorable.

Ahmad (25:13.314)

Clayton Baker (25:33.731)
And so there were three parts, and they kind of touch on what you were saying just a moment ago. So here’s my definition, and it’s a working definition, and I welcome people to give their honest criticisms of it. Medical freedom is a moral, ethical, and legal concept essential to the just and proper practice of medicine that asserts the following. Number one,

The individual patient’s autonomy over his or her own body with regard to any and all medical treatment is absolute and inalienable. Number two, physicians and public health officials do not possess the authority to deprive any citizen of their fundamental civil rights, including during a declared medical emergency.

Clayton Baker (26:28.339)
are essential to medical practice and must be observed at all times by all physicians, nurses, public health officials, researchers, manufacturers, and all others involved in healthcare. So those were the three sort of pillars, if you will, of that I came up with. And then there’s a bunch, there’s sort of a bill of rights down below that we can get to in a moment. But I wonder what you might think about those three legs of the stool, if you will.

Ahmad (26:53.518)
Mate, it’s amazing, it’s amazing. I would just say to the second one, rather than just say medical emergency, I would say any emergency, medical or otherwise, because you know the WHO and the IHR treaty, they will even accept climate change emergency as a cause for calling a lockdown or calling for restrictions. So I just feel like any emergency, medical or not, under no-

Clayton Baker (27:06.244)

Clayton Baker (27:16.193)

Clayton Baker (27:21.775)
during a declared emergency. Yep. Mm-hmm.

Ahmad (27:23.99)
Yeah, under no, and then clarify, under no circumstances can you like withdraw these rights? Do you know what I mean? Because they might not use the word emergency. They might not say declared public emergency. They might use some other justification. No justification can override this, is what I’m trying to say. You want that broad assuipment. But no, I like it.

Clayton Baker (27:32.441)

Clayton Baker (27:36.963)

Clayton Baker (27:40.867)

Clayton Baker (27:47.04)
Right. So just physicians and public health officials do not possess the authority to deprive any citizen of their fundamental civil rights, period.

Ahmad (27:57.29)

Clayton Baker (27:59.379)
You don’t have that authority under any circumstances.

Ahmad (28:01.93)
Yeah. Don’t give them a window. Oh, you know, not medical merit. Well, they’ll say, all right, we’ll call it something else. Well, you just can’t. You just cannot do that.

Clayton Baker (28:07.797)

Right. You don’t have, you do not have that authority, period. Yeah, no, you’re right. And I think that that’s a great, that’s a great point. I think that…

Ahmad (28:22.378)
I mean the thing is we’re not lawyers though. We’re not lawyers. You know, if I got my lawyer, he’d be like, oh, I wouldn’t even say I’m another person or public officials. I would, you know, they might say no state, no authority, no agency, no individual. You know, they would really clarify. No one out, no one is allowed to take that away from the clinician or the patient. Person or organization.

Clayton Baker (28:34.671)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Clayton Baker (28:44.031)
Right. And I think that.

Clayton Baker (28:48.535)
Well, I think you’re right. And I think that the other thing is that this would apply to freedom of speech for physicians, right? Because physicians are citizens and you have a right to speak and you have a right to function, to have a life outside of your practice and to have a life outside of your.

Ahmad (29:12.572)
Can you please tell that to my private hospital that just suspended me? They need to hear this.

Clayton Baker (29:17.499)
Right, I mean, they’re basically… Well, it’s really, it shows you how, I mean, it’s in high relief for you because you’re suffering the unjust consequences of it. But it really shows you just how far onto a power trip all of these agencies or these entities get very, very quickly. You know, and they’re probably, who knows, I shouldn’t say probably, they may be feeling pressure from above, you know, you…

quiet this guy down or we’re going to come after you. And so what do they do? They buckle under immediately. Or you’ve got someone who’s a little too ambitious at some level there who doesn’t like you, or maybe that individual’s on the take in some way. And that’s all it takes because nobody wants to be on the wrong side of the argument here. Nobody wants to be on the losing side. And then when the…

Ahmad (29:52.654)

Ahmad (30:13.038)

Clayton Baker (30:14.191)
pendulum shifts, which it inevitably does. It may be after our, you know, maybe long after we’re gone, they’re all gonna be jumping on the other side of the bandwagon. I’ve seen this again and again. I’ll tell you a funny story. I just had to do for a licensing renewal for one of the states that I have a license in. And I had to do a several hour.

Ahmad (30:21.688)

Ahmad (30:26.166)

Clayton Baker (30:41.911)
refresher course in opioid prescribing. And never mind the whole other question of why are they taking three or four hours out of my day, who gave them the authority to make me sit and listen to some boring presentation and then take seven stupid questions that I could have gotten right before I took it, you know what I mean kind of thing, just so that I meet some sort of standard.

Ahmad (30:52.91)

Clayton Baker (31:07.235)
But, you know, hey, if I want to practice in that state, that’s the way it is. So I just said, okay, I’m going to do it. Whether it was smart or whether it was fair is somewhat immaterial. But anyway, so I do this thing and I’m looking at, I’m listening to this presentation and it’s telling me stuff that I basic, most of which I know I gained a few pieces of information that might be useful, although it probably wasn’t worth three or four hours of my time. But at any rate, you know, fair enough, just get it done.

Ahmad (31:11.598)

Ahmad (31:33.976)

Clayton Baker (31:36.927)
And I get it done and then they have, inevitably, in order for me to print out my certificate so I can prove to the state that I did it, before that I have to do a survey. And so now I’m starting to just say to myself, look, why do I have to do a survey? Why is that part of this? You know, I’m doing this under someone else’s insistence. I’m sure the state has paid them to put this thing together. So they’re getting their money. They’re not gonna do it for free. It was one of the universities.

And it’s like, now I’ve got to tell you how wonderful this was. And so I go through there and they said, what’s missing? And I gave them a middling rate. You know how it is with surveys. They want five stars, anything under five stars. Because most people just say five stars, five stars. So four stars is like the minimum passing grade. There’s great inflation in these surveys, like crazy.

So I give them all threes. I mean, it wasn’t bad, it wasn’t good. I gave them threes, which I know is not what they want, but that’s what I thought they deserved. And then they said, well, why did you give the scores you gave? And I said, because in the United States, and I lived through this for the last 20 years, all of these pharmaceutical companies were pushing OxyContin on people, and you people were telling us that pain was the fifth vital sign, and you were telling us that patients should not be in pain.

Ahmad (32:33.347)

Clayton Baker (33:01.803)
And you were telling us that these were not significantly addictive drugs, and hundreds of thousands of people have died. And now you’re turning around and telling me, I have to do, which I agree with, I have to do urine testing on a regular basis. I have to have a pain contract with people. If they show repeated misuse or disuse of it, then I have to cut them off or taper them to off.

15 years ago you were telling me just give these things out like they were M&Ms and There’s no not one place in this entire Instruction manual is there any acknowledgement of What I just said that 15 years ago you would have been telling me Oxycontin is not Addictive and get their pain down as close to zero as you can You know, there’s absolutely no

Ahmad (33:33.303)

Ahmad (33:53.986)
That’s a great example you’ve given.

Clayton Baker (33:57.367)
There’s no sense of any responsibility. There’s no sense of any, we made a mistake. There’s no sense of even just a historical context. There’s no mention of the narcotic, there wasn’t even any mention of the narcotic epidemic. It was, here’s how we do it now. Like this operates in absolute isolation. And the guys who were doing it were old enough. The guys who were presenting it were old enough that I’m sure if they were, you know, they were doing

Ahmad (34:04.214)

Ahmad (34:14.211)

Clayton Baker (34:26.891)
that stuff 15 years ago and they weren’t asking questions because they wouldn’t be in the position they’re in if they were asking questions. You can vouch for that. And so, you know, I look at this and I just see that the whole situation is so unreflective. It’s so, it’s really sociopathic. It’s that here’s what our formal recommendations are right now. They may be good, they may be bad, they may be awful.

Ahmad (34:37.215)
May I 100%

Clayton Baker (34:56.055)
But here’s what we recommend right now. Here’s what you have to do. And if you don’t do it, you’re gonna get in trouble. You know, I mean, who’s making me take this class? And again, I agree with where we’re at for the most part right now with the pain control issue, and I follow it pretty closely. But 15 years ago, I was fighting with people. I was saying, you don’t need these things. This isn’t good for you. You know, these are addictive. I don’t care what Purdue Pharma says or, you know, whatever.

And so, you know, 15 years ago, I was having this battle with patient after patient, and now things have swung back the other way, and there’s no acknowledgement, zero acknowledgement that ever anything was done wrong. And it was done at a systematic level because people were making money off.

Ahmad (35:34.262)
You know…

Ahmad (35:39.862)
May 100% and such a good example. And I’m afraid you’re never gonna see anyone say sorry. A couple of things I wanna add to this. So I have doubts every day. Every day I question myself and my sanity. And one of the tools that I use to confirm that I’m in the right place is I go, does anyone on the other side ever own up and say, oh man, we made a mistake and we’re sorry? The answer is no. Have I made mistakes? Yeah. Do I own up?

Yeah. Am I perfect? No. None of them, none of the officials over there on the other side actually say, Oh man, our bad. We called it wrong. Sorry. Genuine apology or not. So that’s one thing. Two, I’ve also said that many of the people that we see now pushing in the last three years, the lockdowns, the COVID vaccines and whatever, I bet you’ll be the same people in five, 10 years time with, Oh, that was terrible that what happened. It’s terrible. Yeah, that shouldn’t happen again.

We need to make sure that doesn’t happen again. The same people that rammed it down our throats will be the ones saying, oh yeah, it was terrible. When it’s a convenient time, they’ll get all the promotion, all the air time. You know, they will have that. And you can even see some of that happen now. And like, for example, in New Zealand or Canada, Jacinda Heron, whatever, there was no one, we weren’t mandating it. We weren’t forcing anyone. It was, everybody had their choice. Well, hold on one second. You got sacked if you didn’t take the job. You couldn’t travel. You couldn’t leave your house.

Your whole life was made misery. You’re, you know, insulted on a daily basis by the media and the press and authorities. If you didn’t take the job, you’re made to feel like an idiot and a fool and a dirty leper. And now you’re turning around saying, no, I’m forced. No, we, we never. And you’re a hundred percent right. They just changed the goalposts and changed the narratives and never take responsibility, never take accountability for their actions and just move on. Like it’s a new thing, but this is.

Clayton Baker (37:19.509)

Ahmad (37:36.962)
This is a medical, this selective amnesia, this medical selective amnesia has been a problem that’s been going for a long time. So again, speaking to Roman Brerinsky, whatever his name is, you know, we’re talking about how doctors over the centuries or millennia have really caused a lot of harm. You know, like the Galen principles, venus section, purging, leaching.

Clayton Baker (37:58.433)

Ahmad (38:00.178)
giving mercury, giving arsenic, poisoning people to death. And then when you stop poisoning them, they feel better, surprise, surprise. And there you go, you’ve cured them. Or, you know, trepanning, sticking a needle up your brain and shoving it around a little bit, taking your brain off, lobotomy. I mean, we have a track record of really effing things up and doing a bad thing. It’s like, what the frack? But did I ever in med school, in five years of intensive lectures and blah,

Clayton Baker (38:14.626)

Clayton Baker (38:23.736)

Ahmad (38:30.038)
Did I have even one lecture to say, hey guys, you know, as doctors, we really cocked up a lot in the past. I mean, we did some dumb shit. And guys, guess what? We’ll probably be doing some dumb shit right now, but we don’t know about it. And guess what? Tomorrow we’ll be doing some dumb shit. And actually what we need to do is have a bit of humility and recognize the fact that we do mistakes, do make mistakes. And we need to recognize our past and have that humility moving forward.

and always question what are we doing? Is this the right thing? I never had any lecture like that. Do you remember having any lecture like that?

Clayton Baker (39:08.071)
No, I would have, you know, small little, you know, you’d hear a very quick, very briefly, a story about someone like Semmelweis or someone like that. And what they would conveniently omit is that it was not a bunch of lazy cranks who tried to destroy Ignaz Semmelweis. It was the establishment. It was the medical establishment.

Ahmad (39:37.038)

Clayton Baker (39:38.159)
That’s the thing. But if you’re in the club, you never want to admit that the club was, you know, wrong. You know, if you’re the pope, it’s very, very difficult to go back and say, well, the pope has got, you know, the papacy has got a long and very sorted history of misuse of power.

Ahmad (39:49.07)

Clayton Baker (40:03.051)
You know, it’s going to be some marginal historian who’s going to be pointing that out. It’s not going to be the papacy saying, oh, well, we’ve had a ton of problems, and now we need to tidy things up and make sure it never happens again. No. And so I think it’s the same thing in medicine. It’s this notion of it’s this constant movement towards improved care, and it’s this constant. And meanwhile, as you say, they just come up with new atrocities. I mean,

Ahmad (40:09.37)

Clayton Baker (40:32.067)
There’s nothing, there’s, excuse me, taking a adolescent girl and cutting out part of her quadriceps to create a neophalus, that is an atrocity. I mean, that is mutilation of the most ridiculous sort, absolutely ridiculous sort. And for someone to say otherwise is just absurd. And I’m taking an extreme.

Ahmad (40:53.495)
Oh yeah.

Clayton Baker (40:59.599)
case, but this happens. This is absurd in the most brutal and Frankensteinish sort of way. And you know, Frankenstein was supposed to be a horror story. It was not supposed to be an instruction manual for surgeons, you know, and this is what we’re dealing with. So we say, well, you know, we know much better now. We’d never say don’t wash your hands between patients and Semmelweis proved that to us. Well, they destroyed Semmelweis, or they tried to.

And who did? It wasn’t the fringe people, it was the people in charge. And now, oh yes, well he’s a hero. Okay, well he’s long dead. Okay? And now we’re doing this monstrous surgery on young people. You know, you don’t even wait till they’re 21 because they probably come to their senses by then. And so, you know, we are just in an incredible, incredible time. It’s no different than anything else. The technology…

Ahmad (41:30.766)

Clayton Baker (41:55.351)
does not make people smarter. The technology does not change human nature. The technology does not make people more moral or more just. It simply gives them more power to do good and or evil. It’s as simple as that. It just makes them more powerful. And that’s what we’re facing now. And it’s really concerning. And in the light of that, I added on a sort of a Bill of Rights kind of thing as well. And we can go through some of those if you want.

Ahmad (41:58.574)

Clayton Baker (42:24.631)
just kind of, and you mentioned a bunch of them yourself when you had your little, your brief description of what you thought medical ethics was, but you know, I think that you really have to outline some of these things in more detail because otherwise people kind of just ignore it. And we saw that with, they can still ignore it even if you do outline them because that’s what happened with the Bill of Rights when they locked us down in the United States. They just ignored the Bill of Rights. You have a right to worship, freedom of worship, but you can’t go to church.

Ahmad (42:42.43)

Clayton Baker (42:54.167)
Well, what the heck does a right to freedom of worship mean? I have a right to the freedom of assembly and freedom of worship, but I can’t go to church because there’s a new German town.

Ahmad (43:05.706)

Clayton Baker (43:06.755)
There’s no way to reconcile those things.

Ahmad (43:11.73)
I’ve got this picture of Jesus Christ. I’ve got this picture of Jesus Christ in my head. I can imagine him way back 2000 years ago, 2000 plus years ago. And he’s saying, whoa, hold on, where’s your mask? Don’t come any closer. You need to mask up. Or, whoa, six feet social distancing folks. Come on, come on. No, no, you got too close to me. Or, hey everyone, let’s all kneel down in front of the altar of the holy vaccine.

Everybody jabbed up, boosted, you know, can I see Jesus saying that? Or everyone, I want you to put faith in Fauci and the holy vaccine. Oh man, I’m really struggling with this one. I really am. And to all those religious Christians listening out there, I know it’s a bit, I’m taking a bit of a joke here, but I mean, like seriously, think about it. What would Jesus be doing today if he was here? Can you see him wearing a face visor?

or a face mask, a muzzle, or social distance. Ah, I don’t think so. I think he’d be the rebel. I think he’d be like you and me, Clayton. I think he’d be the dissident. And I think he’d be called a quack and a conspiracy theorist. So guess what, my friend, we’re in good company.

Clayton Baker (44:29.879)
I hope you’re right. I’d like to think you’re right. And I think that I can’t see someone like, I can’t see Socrates, I can’t see Jesus, I can’t see John the Baptist, I can’t see Semmelweis, I can’t see any of these people that I admire doing, following the herd here. I just don’t see it. And then the other issue is, you always see when you look under the hood,

You see how the engine runs and I guess it’s a bonnet in England, right? It’s, it’s, you look under the bonnet to see how the engine runs, right? Oh, it’s still, it’s a hood now. I thought it was a bonnet, but okay. But anyways, but, uh, you know, you, you look, you look and you see what’s, uh, you look and see what’s going, uh, what’s going on. And you realize that it’s not, as you say, being done because there are honest mistakes being made.

Ahmad (45:03.766)
Hood. Yeah, hood, bonnet, whatever. Yeah. Oh, whatever. Whatever, yeah, bonnet, hood, whatever.

Clayton Baker (45:26.548)
It’s not being done to us because they really do want the best for us. It’s really nefarious. You know, it really is abuse and you have to stand up to abuse. And I think that, you know, again, psychologically, it bears so many resemblances to the abused spouse or abused partner kind of thing. You know, it’s like you get abused, you get gaslit.

and then you get a little bit of.

theoretically positive treatment, you know, to draw you back in and then you get abused again and it’s an abusive relationship between the authority and the individual citizen and people have to realize it in those terms as well. And there’s a reason why it’s hard to get out of an abusive relationship. It’s because the psychological manipulation and the physical fear and so on are real.

But you have to realize that the correct response is not to tolerate it. The correct response is to say no and say, we have to stop this.

Ahmad (46:36.718)

Ahmad (46:40.622)
And there’s also an element of, 100%, there’s also an element of people who develop Stockholm syndrome, which is real. You know, they are comfortable in their pain and suffering and they’re scared of the unknown and they don’t wanna let go because it’s so scary for them. You know, Stockholm syndrome isn’t as simple as, oh, I fell in love with my kidnapper. It’s a complex thing and, you know, they mentally get very, very damaged. And I think what we’re seeing now is a societal Stockholm syndrome.

You know, the truth now is just so painful. They’re comfortable in their current discomfort. They know, they know this discomfort and the alternative is an unknown and that frankly terrifies them. Yeah.

Clayton Baker (47:24.535)
Well, the unknown is terrible. The unknown is that your whole, virtually every authoritative body above you has been deliberately abusing you. And that’s not a fun thing to think about. It’s easier not to think that that’s what’s going on.

Ahmad (47:40.478)
Yeah. And I trust me, I know, because I’m going through it all. I’m feeling it right now, every second. Can I tell you something? I had a really funny dream the other day. I have funny dreams, by the way. I don’t know. I don’t know what you make of this one. I had this dream. It’s 50 years from now and I’m 98. But the good news is I’m quite fit and healthy 98, like quite fit and healthy. And I was at a meeting of doctors. It’s a big fancy do, big hall.

lights are dimmed, people are sitting around tables having dinner. And I get called up to the stage and everyone’s clapping. And I get called up because they want me to give a speech about how I stood up to the tyranny and the bullshit of 50 years earlier, i.e. today. And how it took almost 40, 45 years to overturn things, the dark days, to get back to this era.

And I’m standing at this podium looking at all these young faces and they’re all looking very happy clapping at me, you know, congratulating me. But my speech was quite somber. And I was like, don’t, don’t clap. You know, you, you think you respect me and like me. And, you know, I want you to remember what I’m going to tell you. I’m going to remember what it took to stand up against the mob and the tyranny and the establishment and the tribe.

and to be victimized and name-called and bullied, it’s not easy. And it’s not, you know, it’s a hard thing to do. And if you want to preserve the freedom that you currently enjoy, not just one of you needs to have that courage to stand up for all of you. And maybe it won’t happen in your lifetime because maybe now you’ve got a phase where everything’s good, but you should remember this speech and pass it on to your students and instill it in them because it will probably be during their time

that they will have to remember this and stand up to the tyranny, because that’s how the cycle of life goes by. Anyway, the applause all went quiet and everybody was stunned into silence. And then I wrapped up my speech and went back and sat down at the table. That was my dream.

Clayton Baker (49:55.031)
Well, if I may, I’ve got two reactions to that. The first is if I were you and you have some time, sometime soon while it’s still fresh in your mind and you could even use the recording here to kind of jar your memory, I would write it down. I would make an essay of it. You could make a beautiful five, 600 word essay about what your dream was like.

Ahmad (50:14.73)
Oh, you know what? I’ll do a substack. I’ll do a substack tonight. I’ll do it. Honestly, this was my dream from… Yeah, I did it a couple of nights ago. I had this dream.

Clayton Baker (50:18.979)
Do a substack on it. I think it’s, I think it’s, I would do that because I would, I would think it would be nice to compose that into something and put that in your substack and I think it would be a beautiful thing. You know, my, it’s, you know, title is You See Fit, but my dream, you know, and then just put that on there, just keep it simple. The other thing I would say is it reminded me as soon as you started really going in with the, what, when you got called up there and you spoke.

You can go back and look. I think it is in the

80s that Harvard University called Solzhenitsyn to come and speak at their, at their, at the commencement, you know, at the graduation. And this speech that he gave back in the 80s, and I believe it was before the fall of the Berlin Wall, I believe it was, but

Ahmad (51:02.382)

Ahmad (51:08.258)
He’s amazing. He is amazing.

Clayton Baker (51:22.723)
You go and that’s readily available online and just read that it’s not that long but they didn’t get what they expected from the guy and It has some of the some of the content that you are Describing from your own dream. Yeah, some of this some similar stuff. It’s it comes across to me is that so this is

Ahmad (51:40.919)

Ahmad (51:46.12)
Where did he give this speech?

Clayton Baker (51:51.363)
If you just go onto the internet and do an internet search for Solzhenitsyn, Harvard commencement speech, and I believe it was sometime in the early 80s, the text of it is, I think, is readily available and you should read it in the light of what you just described from your own dream because there’s some similarities there that I think are

very interesting. It was really more of an admonishment than it was any kind of valedictory. And I think it was very prescient when you see what has happened to American higher education, which is just appalling in my opinion. So, but anyway, yeah, so that’s great. You got to write, you see when you send me something, a great story like that.

Ahmad (52:25.486)

Ahmad (52:37.294)

Clayton Baker (52:49.139)
The first thing I hear is you got to write it down. I give you an assignment afterwards because it’s so good. You got to record it for posterity. So be careful when you give me your best material because I’m going to give you work to do.

Ahmad (52:51.796)


Ahmad (52:58.83)

Ahmad (53:04.43)
Okay, yes sir, yes sir.

Clayton Baker (53:08.139)
So, but anyways, going back, let’s go, if you have time, let’s go through a few of the things that we, I thought were kind of important minor points. And you can tell me if these are really, which ones you think are most important or which ones you don’t think are important. But one of the things that I felt there were some derivative kind of statements. And I wanted to reassert that patient autonomy depends on informed consent, confidentiality, truth telling.

and protection against coercion. And the coercion is probably, I don’t know if it’s the most important, informed consent is probably the most important, but they’re all important. And protection against coercion, because if you really look at the medical literature, and it was all well established before COVID, as you and I both know, and it just got thrown out the window.

But coercion is not just you put a gun to someone’s head. And that’s where this gaslighting that you described in New Zealand and all around the world, really, we didn’t force you to do it. It’s coercion when you take away someone’s job. It’s coercion when you don’t allow them to go to school. It’s coercion when you incentivize them to do it. You give someone $100 to do something, that’s coercion because some people aren’t smart enough to know the difference, or aren’t savvy enough, I should say, to know the difference.

If you want autonomy, it has to be involved for patients. It has to involve informed consent, confidentiality, truth telling, and protection against coercion. And if you really take all those four points seriously, then a lot of it falls into place. So, you know, I spent some time saying that informed consent has to be obtained for all interventions to be valid. It has to…

The patient has to be competent or the proxy has to be competent and the proxy has to be representing the patient’s best interests, not somebody else’s. And that competent individual has to get full disclosure and voluntarily agree after they understand the full disclosure. And then going down further, confidentiality is central to patient autonomy. If someone can walk around and tell people what my health status is, I don’t have any patient autonomy.

Clayton Baker (55:19.347)
If you have, if I can’t get on an airplane unless I can prove I don’t have syphilis, then what the heck is patient autonomy, right? And I joke when I say syphilis, but you know, they won’t, who knows what they’ll do it for. You know, this vaccine passport, vaccine, quarantine camp rather, a law that, not law, but this quarantine camp executive order that Governor Hokel in New York

tried to put through and there’s a huge court case going on through the different layers of appeal, essentially says that for any infectious disease cause that’s felt to be a threat, they can take you out of your home and they can put you in a quarantine camp. This is a New York state in the United States of America. You know, this clearly violates the Bill of Rights, habeas corpus, God knows how much else. But is right now the most recent court…

Ahmad (56:02.971)

Clayton Baker (56:15.335)
Appeal they dismissed it saying that no one had been harmed by it yet, which is of course is an absurd reason to dismiss something So, you know, this is a real threat that you know, you have to have confidentiality People don’t have a right to know whether you’re sick or you’re healthy or whatever The the government doesn’t have a right to know everything about your health status if they do then really again What patient autonomy do you have you have none? And then truth-telling is important and this is you know patients

should be able to say, these people have to tell me the truth. I mean, this is so absolutely common sensical, we shouldn’t even have to write it down. But how many times have people been lied to, lied to, lied to, lied to over the COVID era? Just all the time, constantly, constantly.

Ahmad (57:01.89)
all the bloody time.

Ahmad (57:06.154)
All the time. Constantly.

Clayton Baker (57:09.531)
And this is where someone should get disciplined. Someone should get disciplined if they’re saying, if they’re still saying that little kids should be getting this jab right now. Those people should be the ones being disciplined, but instead they’re being praised, instead they’re being promoted to have the CDC. Coercion of any kind. Again, coercion is not, we didn’t put a gun to your head. Coercion is…

bribery, incentivization, threats, blackmail, public shaming, scapegoating, ostracizing people from society, deceptive advertising is coercion. All of that is coercion. You can’t have informed consent if people are constantly telling you that you will suffer consequences if you don’t, if you, large or small.

if you don’t do what they tell you to do. That’s coercion. And again, I take it back to this notion, and this is something perhaps that, you know, lay people can really appreciate is think of an abusive relationship. You know, at least theoretically, we’ve come to the notion that abusive relationships are not just do what I say or I’ll bash your face in. Okay, it’s more than that. There’s psychological abuse, there’s financial abuse, there’s

Ahmad (58:06.71)

Ahmad (58:23.844)

Ahmad (58:29.048)

Clayton Baker (58:30.067)
all other forms of abuse that you can do to dominate somebody and to treat them unfair. Neglect, exactly. You will not write. You won’t get this if you don’t write. And so this is what we are involved, the individual citizen, in my opinion, and this is not too strong a statement, is in so many ways involved in an abusive relationship with the healthcare industry. They’re involved in an abusive relationship with so many of their government agencies.

Ahmad (58:32.467)

Clayton Baker (58:58.803)
And you have to realize that these elements that are true in an abusive relationship between two spouses or partners is the relationship that you are having. And you know what’s the key, Ahmad, to that? There’s a power differential, right, in these abusive relationships, right? Someone’s got, controls the money. Someone owns the house. Someone is bigger and stronger than the other person.

someone is more psychologically adept, more psychologically able to manipulate the other person. Geez, that’s kind of sounds like the government.

Ahmad (59:37.518)
I’m feeling very much like an abused victim right now. It’s quite painful hearing you say all this, mate. It’s getting me triggered. I’m thinking about all the medical directors and all the people hiding behind corporate bodies, corporate bodies attacking me, institutions, nameless faces. Here I am, you know, in the public arena, head above the parapet, but I’m…

Clayton Baker (59:48.62)
Well, I-

Clayton Baker (59:57.131)

Ahmad (01:00:05.686)
You know, people are taking shots at me, snipers hidden away. No one can see them. No one knows what they’re doing. You know, I haven’t named and shamed anyone. I haven’t gone public. I feel like it. I feel like every day saying, look at these goddamn people and look what they’re doing to me. Look at the tricks that they’re using. Look how devious they are. Look how sly they are. Look how they’re distorting the truth and reality. Look how they’re focusing on minutia and overlooking all the good that I do.

Clayton Baker (01:00:24.027)

Ahmad (01:00:35.766)
Look how the punitive measures they’re taking. Look how cruel they are. Yeah, I feel like doing that all the time, but I can’t because of the power differential. There’s a power differential and the truth is, I am being abused and it’s very hard. And I wish more people in the public kind of understood that we’re all being abused, some more than others, some more public than others.

Clayton Baker (01:00:40.055)

Ahmad (01:01:01.622)
But you’re right. It’s not just the medical industry, the medical industrial complex, it’s corporations, it’s hospitals, it’s hospital chains, it’s governments. And I almost feel like it’s all melded into one, you know, governments are now so in bed, politicians are so in bed with corporations, this revolving doors as well. I don’t know if you know, but for example, even here in this country,

You know, there’s very close links between politicians and big corporations. You know, we had someone called Nick Clegg who then went off to work for Facebook. We had the deputy medical chief medical officer who then has gone off to work for Moderna, you know, it’s just, it’s all one, one big beast. This idea that you have this public government body that’s looking after you. And then you’ve got these private companies. It’s so great. It’s all mushy, mushy. It’s not so.

Clayton Baker (01:01:46.851)

Ahmad (01:02:00.194)
clear cut anymore. Whether you’re working in the public sector or private sector, it’s really not that different. You get this impression that they’re different, but they’re not. And that’s where I come to this idea that, you know, we’re really kind of like living under this corporate, fascist, autocracy type thing, you know? This beast.

Clayton Baker (01:02:00.563)
Mm-hmm. Oh, absolutely.

Clayton Baker (01:02:20.947)
Oh, absolutely. I think that’s what people are, you have this Leviathan, right? I think that that’s what more and more people are coming to the conclusion about. And you have to reassert your rights and you have to push back. And even as painful as it is, you know, we have future generations that are going to rely upon, you know, those of us who I think are willing to speak up and do whatever our small part is to hopefully

you know, improve things. That’s all I can say. I just feel people say, you know, why do you get do this? Why do you, you know, it’s, for me, it’s kind of a matter of conscience and I’m not suggesting that I’m, you know, I joke, you know, it’s like, look, I’ve never thought of myself as a particularly brave individual. If I’m in the top 1% of courage, no wonder we’re in the mess that we’re in, you know?

this is the situation that we’re in. There’s just very little willingness for people to stand up and to speak out for what they disagree with. And that’s really why we’re in the mess that we’re in. And so you have to encourage people to do so within the limits of what they can do. You have to encourage people to support someone who’s in a bind like yourself right now. And this will pass. It’s painful. It’s awful, but it’ll pass. And

You know, you just have to keep acting according to your conscience. I don’t regret.

anything I’ve done to speak out during COVID. If I have regrets, it’s where I didn’t do as much as perhaps I should have in my own mind. And so, you know, that’s just where I’m at with it. You know, I think I’m just a, you know, I’m a cranky contrary person. I don’t want to be bossed around. I don’t want people to, and I think that, you know,

Ahmad (01:04:03.619)
Me too.

Clayton Baker (01:04:19.199)
well known to be stubborn and so on and that’s you know, but I think some of those some of those Characteristics are not necessarily all bad. You know, there’s only one According to the ancient philosophers as far as I know there’s only one So-called vice that’s always vicious and that’s envy is the only one that’s always vicious Because there’s no way if you’re envious of someone else you want to just

Ahmad (01:04:41.774)

Clayton Baker (01:04:48.527)
tear them down. You want to tear them down to your level or below your level. And that’s never good. You know, anger is not good in itself, but sometimes anger is righteous. You know, um, you know, you can be foolhardy, but foolhardy is just the, it’s just the extreme of courage, right? You can be, um, cautious and cautious can be good or it can be bad if you’re too cautious. So everything else has got

You can be greedy, but you do have to earn a living, et cetera, et cetera. But so that’s the way they looked at it. But there, the things that we think of sometimes as being negative, like being stubborn, stubborn is not necessarily vice. Stubborn can be a virtue. You know, it’s just, that’s what I’ve come to the conclusion of. And being skeptical, you, you can be too skeptical. You can basically say every, you can be a cynic.

Ahmad (01:05:33.534)

Clayton Baker (01:05:39.171)
But short of being a cynic, I think being a healthy skeptic is extremely important. And I wish more people were skeptic.

Ahmad (01:05:43.518)
What you’re basically saying is a little bit of envy. Yeah, but what you’re saying is a little bit of envy is never right. And it’s funny, you should talk about envy. So when I got suspended last week, several people messaged me and say, you don’t understand, Ahmed, people are jealous of you. Your doctor colleagues are jealous of you. And I’ll tell you, Clayton, I didn’t get this. And I’ll tell you why. I really honestly never understood jealousy because

When I see someone doing really well, when I see someone in a flash car and a big house, my automatic feeling is, oh, good for them. Good for them. And my second thing is, oh, that’s going to inspire me. I want something like that. I want, you know, I need to work harder and be better. You know, that is, I swear to God, that’s my mindset. I’ve never ever felt like, oh, I hope ruin on this person and let’s get my little doll out and put pinpricks in it. You know, I don’t wish.

Clayton Baker (01:06:21.912)

Clayton Baker (01:06:37.088)

Ahmad (01:06:37.15)
ill or bad on anyone for their success. I’m happy for them. And I guess maybe that’s very un-British-like because British people like to bring people down, or maybe just human beings like to bring people down. But I think Americans more so really celebrate people who have done very well. There is a cultural thing where if you do well in America, people want to aspire to that and celebrate that achievement.

And so I don’t really understand jealousy. So that was one thing. And then I was thinking, what, they’re jealous of me being ostracized and my career being absolutely demolished and my livelihood being, you know, just disappear and to be under the stress and, you know, uncertainty and putting my future on the line and, you know, having tearful weekends, you know, cause I was quite tearful this weekend and, you know, my wife, her being upset.

Clayton Baker (01:07:30.541)

Ahmad (01:07:32.254)
You know, who the hell would ever be jealous of me? But then some people were saying they are. They’re jealous that you have the courage to do what you’re doing. They’re jealous that you’re free and they’re not. They’re jealous that they’re tied into a system that they know is rotten to the core and they’re sold into and wedded to it so they can’t speak up. So maybe they are jealous. Maybe jealousy is a thing. But it’s funny you should just talk about envy. I struggle with the whole concept.

Can I just say another thing? I really want to do a shout out if you don’t mind. So today my daughter is unwell and she was very pale. She had this cough and she was like, dad, I really don’t want to go to school. And it’s not like her. So I dropped my other two off and she spent the day with me. And she was saying to me at one point, dad, why are you at home? Like, why are you not working? I was like, baby, because I told you, I can’t work anymore. I’m suspended and I can’t go to the hospitals. And she was like, well, how are we going to get money?

Clayton Baker (01:08:02.871)

Ahmad (01:08:30.238)
And I was like, that’s a really good question. And she said, is that why you and mama were saying you’re not gonna get Christmas presents for each other this year? I went, yeah, that’s why we’re not getting Christmas presents. And she went, daddy, I’m really worried now. I went, don’t be. And then I got a little notification on my phone. I got an email. And I wanna just say, I read this out to my daughter and it made her really happy. So someone called Mark Birch became a silver level member of Buy Me a Coffee subscription for me.

and he’s giving me 10 pounds every month, and he left me a message. Keep up the good work. I’m desperately trying to convince my wife I’m not crazy and that our kids don’t need to be getting jabbed or sprayed. I think your talk with Sally Beck could be one to hopefully prove this. Many thanks. And you know what? It just came at the right time, and my daughter was like, who’s this? And I was like, this is someone who supports what I’m doing, and it’s people like him.

who are going to help us pay the bills and survive, and we’re going to be okay. And immediately after that, she gave me a big hug. So I just want to say thanks to Mark Birch and the two people who subscribed to my sub stack. They are Alexis today, Waving Particle Alexis, and the other one from today is Danielle at Great OREX. So all you guys.

Thank you so much by the way. Sorry, I thought I’d just mention that because it made me and my daughter really happy today.

Clayton Baker (01:10:02.156)
Oh, that’s wonderful.

Well, you know, you’re going to get support. You’re fighting for individuals. So the support you’re going to get is going to be principally at the individual level, right? You know, I mean, that just makes logical sense. You’re fighting big brother, and big brother’s not going to support you, but the individual folks are. And so I think that that’s a wonderful thing, and hopefully more people will follow Mr. Birch’s lead and so on. It’s just, it’s…

Ahmad (01:10:20.639)

Clayton Baker (01:10:34.399)
It’s so hard, but if you can look at yourself in the mirror, the value of, yeah, and just every morning you get up and you look at yourself in the mirror and you can say, I’m doing what I believe is right, that’s why they envy you. That’s why they envy you. And they don’t understand all of the misery that comes with it.

Ahmad (01:10:40.534)
Ride the storm. Yeah.

Clayton Baker (01:11:01.699)
but that’s why they envy you. They know you can sleep at night with a clean conscience. You may be worried, you may have trouble sleeping because you’re worried about the finances, but you’re not worried about am I a sellout, am I a…

henchmen to the stuff that’s going on. They know that you can go to bed with a clean conscience. Envious, that’s why they’re envious, in my opinion. So yeah.

Ahmad (01:11:32.098)
Clayton, I love you man. I want you to finish up on the bill of rights about medical freedom, because I really want you to touch upon your other article, which I was fascinated by, the one about the depopulation thing. Have we got a little bit more to talk about? Because we’ve got about 20, we’ve got another 20 minutes, just so that you know how much time we’ve got, and then I need to go pick up my kids. So we’ve got another 20 minutes.

Clayton Baker (01:11:45.943)
Mm-hmm. Sure, sure, just a little bit. Yeah, so out.

Clayton Baker (01:11:56.087)
Perfect. So let’s do this. So yeah, let’s just run through them real quick. So, you know, I talked about beneficence. You know, if you, all treatments given to a patient should be done only when the prospect and intention and likelihood of providing real benefit is there. If it doesn’t help them, you don’t do it. There’s no taking one for the team. Now, non-maleficence of course, is the first do no harm preceptive medical practice. And that was totally.

obviously is still being totally dismissed during COVID. You know, no medical treatment should be imposed on anybody if the risk benefit ratio is negative for that patient. And the low hanging fruit example here for me is pediatric COVID vaccines. Kids don’t die of COVID, they just don’t. The number is statistically virtually zero. If it’s the boy in the bubble,

with severe combined immunodeficiency, maybe you want to protect him from COVID in a big way. But short of something like that, the death rate is minuscule. I spoke with the, I spoke via email with the health minister of Finland. Do you know how many kids have died of COVID in the whole country of Finland since it started? Zero. Nobody in Finland, no kid in Finland. They kept their schools open.

So the denominator in the risk benefit analysis here when you give a kid a COVID jab is zero. Well, the risk is not zero. We all know, and even the authorities will admit, although they horribly underestimate the prevalence and severity of it, even the authorities will admit that there’s a significant risk of myocarditis. So you’ve got a non-zero number in the numerator of risk, and you’ve got a zero in the benefit. That’s an infinitely negative.

infinitely negative risk benefit analysis. Done. Nobody. Shouldn’t be allowed. And it’s being allowed. It’s being pushed in the United States by the head of the CDC. So the non-maleficence is something that needs to be really pushed. The justice requires that the benefits and the burdens of medical care should be distributed as equally as possible. And kids should not be bearing the brunt. Oh, kids are resilient. How many times do we hear that? That’s nonsense. Kids should not be taking one for the team.

Ahmad (01:14:19.832)

Clayton Baker (01:14:22.755)
Public health directives that impact civil rights in any way have to be enacted lawfully through legislation, not by emergency declaration. You can’t just say, oops, the plague is coming to town. We’re shutting you down. Can’t do it. Refuse, and again, even something like we’re going to have a, you know,

Ahmad (01:14:40.223)

Clayton Baker (01:14:48.431)
Quarantine law it has to be a law. It can’t be just an emergency declaration Refusal of treatment should never result in punishment of the patient. Okay, and the only way it should the only possible excuse or Exception for this would be if the first treatment is an absolute prerequisite for the second So if someone doesn’t want one vaccination that should not preclude them from getting a renal transplant or something

Now, maybe if there’s something that’s absolutely a prerequisite for the next thing, but that would be a rare case. The medical profession has to allow open and honest debate. And you’re feeling, acutely feeling, the fact that this doesn’t exist anymore. If we can’t discuss the pros and cons of something, then we can’t have any kind of advance

profession whatsoever. And we’ve already outlined some of the bad things that we’ve done as a matter of course in our profession over the years. They have to be debatable. You know, lobotomy may have seemed like a good idea at the time, but it was a terrible idea. Are you telling me we can’t say lobotomies are bad? Well, who gets to decide what’s bad? We can sit here and talk about lobotomy all day long and neither of us is going to get in any trouble. But if we talk about vaccines, we get in trouble. What’s up with that?

That’s crazy and that needs to be just identified for what it is as absolutely wrong, absolutely oppressive. It’s not a profession if you can’t discuss these things. It’s not a profession. It’s a job and you are being told what to do. Censorship, silencing, intimidation of physicians has to stop under penalty of professional or legal punishment of the censors, not of the guy who’s speaking out. Right?

Ahmad (01:16:26.625)
Thank you.

Ahmad (01:16:42.206)
Oh dude, I was really hoping you were going to say under penalty of death, but you didn’t. Oh damn it.

Clayton Baker (01:16:42.391)
That’s the way it should be.

Clayton Baker (01:16:49.043)
Yeah, it’s hard to combine the death penalty, okay, good, with medical ethics, yeah. I’m aware of that, yeah. And then patient redress, this is something that I think is really important, is patients have to have the right to seek real and meaningful redress for the harms that they suffer. And that just doesn’t exist with vaccines. It does not exist. You can’t really, in the United States anyway, you really can’t seek.

Ahmad (01:16:51.062)
That was a joke. That was a joke.

Clayton Baker (01:17:18.615)
real meaningful redress for it. And that’s just wrong. There’s no other element of our society. If I sell you a refrigerator and the thing blows up and takes your arm off, you can sue me for a defective refrigerator, but you can’t for a vaccine, come on. And then you’re gonna require me to get the vaccine. That’s absolute madness. We are living in a world of absolute madness when this is what’s going on. Outside influences, you know.

Ahmad (01:17:45.815)
Oh yeah.

Clayton Baker (01:17:48.619)
We got to get rid of the outside influences. You can’t have a, we’re not a profession. We’re not a profession if we are beholden to people selling things. That’s not a profession. That’s, I don’t know what that is. That’s being a salesperson. Physician-patient partnership. The patient working one-on-one with their physician has to be the unit that makes the clinical care decisions. Period. It’s not decided by…

an agency, it’s not decided by. There have to be room for exceptions. And then the last thing that I put in there was the protocols. We really need to get away from a totally protocol-driven attitude towards medicine. There has to be a mechanism in place where you can always deviate from the protocol for good reason. You know, you shouldn’t be intubating every single person with a diagnosis. You kill people that way.

We both know that intubation is dangerous. You don’t put them on it unless they absolutely need it. And every single day you say, can I wean them or get them off the doggone thing? That’s the way I was taught to handle ventilation. But all of a sudden, you know, they’re calling for 20,000 ventilators and they’re gonna ventilate everybody with COVID. That’s what they did. It was wrong. It was a protocol and it was, as many people call it, it was a death protocol because a lot of people died as a result.

Ahmad (01:19:17.134)
Clayton, wasn’t it also the case that these protocols, not only are they protocols, but they’re incentivized protocols. So especially in the US, there was a lot of remuneration. So if you follow the protocols of intubation and remdesivir, whatever, the markup, the profit margin for these hospitals are actually incredible. So you’re incentivizing bad practice through these protocols.

Ahmad (00:00.31)
Sorry about that, fire away.

Clayton Baker (00:02.792)
So yeah, so we got through the list. And I think, you know, give it some thought as you maybe edit this or whatever. If you have any other thoughts, let me know what you think is of greater primacy or what doesn’t fit, and we’ll just kind of go from there. But I really want to try and, I want to put something together for people. I really think it’s important that we have something that’s…

Ahmad (00:18.571)
No, I love it.

Clayton Baker (00:26.872)
organized, codified to some extent and gives us a framework that we can work from. I think that’s really important. So we’re all talking about the same thing. And if people say, well, I agree with this, I don’t agree with that. That’s all, that’s all well and good, but I think we just need to have a, have a framework.

Ahmad (00:42.882)
Well, I love it. Honestly, I love it. I think you’ve spent a lot of time on this. I can tell. And it’s extremely thorough and intricate. And yeah, you know what? I think my dream was inaccurate. I think at that special dinner party event, you were there with me. And you were invited up on the stage as well. I think it should be both of us.

Um, maybe it’ll-

Clayton Baker (01:12.88)
Well, you don’t get to add, you don’t get to fictionalize your dream. You got to do it. That’s one thing about dream analysis. You have to take it exactly as it is, right? You can’t, you can’t editorialize it because then the meaning gets lost.

Ahmad (01:25.732)
But maybe we can shape the future. Maybe one day we’ll be at this meeting together, my friend. You never know, you never know.

Clayton Baker (01:32.32)
Oh, I’m all for it, but you asked me to interpret your dream, and I said one of the first rules that I understand is you can’t editorialize, you have to take it as it comes.

Ahmad (01:42.666)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Right, listen, tell me about the second article. Your wonderful second article.

Clayton Baker (01:49.552)
Well, I’ll tell you the story. My editor at Brownstone, Jeffrey Tucker, who’s just a wonderful editor. I couldn’t ask for a better one. And he, I had seen him at a meeting not too long before Halloween. And he said, you know, I get all these very serious articles, you know, like the one we just went through, I suppose. And he says, you know, sometimes I just want something a little lighter and a little bit more.

you know, kind of what the right word is, I can’t remember what he said, but a little bit lighter. And he’s too subtle. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. A bit of humor, whatever. And he’s, he’s much too much of a gentleman to say, you know, Clayton, I want you to write one of these, but I kind of got the notion. So I wrote one about my dog having gotten sent to the, well, trying to get her taken care of.

Ahmad (02:22.85)
Tongue in cheek. Bit of humor.

Clayton Baker (02:43.604)
taking care of her kennel cough. And we went through all these gymnastics with the veterinarian, which were very similar to a physician, a human being trying to get care through a physician these days. And then I wrote this one for Halloween, which was basically a fictional tale of a group of high tech gazillionaires and evil scientists trying to save the world from overpopulation.

And it’s meant to be humorous, but some of the follow-up I got from people, some of the responses I got from people saying, boy, that’s about as dark a thing as I’ve ever read in my life. And the notion is that they conspire to create this way of depopulating the human race because they feel that there’s just too many people and the human, you know, the world’s going to come to an end if they don’t.

Ahmad (03:25.314)

Ahmad (03:42.082)

Clayton Baker (03:42.136)
And they go through all the possibilities. And one of them is war, but war is really not that efficient at a global level. It’s only efficient at a local level at killing people. And they talk about bombing, but who’s going to let them just bomb 15, 16ths of the population? So then they hit on the idea of a pandemic, of a plague. And of course, the Black Death killed about a quarter.

Ahmad (03:50.777)

Ahmad (04:08.366)
And by the way, I have to point out, in the first sentence, you actually even said, this is a fictional story, which may or may not bear resemblance to events in real life. Maybe some people missed that. Anyway, carry on.

Clayton Baker (04:22.596)
Okay, well, so anyway, so anyway, to make a long story short, they look at plagues, and they say, well, plagues, you know, the Black Death killed 25% of the population in the world, but in 50 years, it was right back where it was. So we really need more than that. And then they hit on the idea of vaccines, because, you know, they have produced vaccines already that will functionally sterilize animals like pigs. So

The idea was let’s have a plague, we’ll manufacture a virus, we’ll release it into the human population, we’ll kill off the vulnerable, we’ll scare the bejesus out of everybody, and then we’ll develop a vaccine for that plague that will further depopulate the population. And so that’s what they do and they see success. But, you know, obviously it doesn’t get the population all the way down to where it absolutely needs to be. But…

you can just kind of lather, rinse, and repeat. And you can just have people continue to take this vaccination indefinitely until you get to your desired goal. So there’s hopefully some humor in there. I tried to insert some. And I tried to insert some, how shall I say it, some intrigue into it. But the idea was that if you look at what

we’ve been through, it kind of is reminiscent of this in some ways. And we do know that there are people out there in very influential positions that do think that this world is overpopulated, and they do think that something has to be done about it. And it just can kind of make you wonder what really the underlying long-term intent is of this. I think it’s more than just money. Obviously, money…

is tremendously important to people, particularly rich people. They seem to always need more. And yet on the other hand, it seems like there’s more to it than just that, that there’s clearly an ideological or sort of an end game kind of.

Clayton Baker (06:34.232)
underlying incentive to pushing these things to the extent that they have. And the last thing I would say is, it’s just really to me interesting that we still haven’t really come to a public understanding of the notion that, you know, look, this was a genetically modified or manipulated virus that came out of a lab, it was created in a lab, it didn’t come from…

scaly anteaters, it came out of the lab, we all know that. Deep down, we all know that. And so the real question is that did it get out accidentally or did it get out intentionally? And the reason why I think they’re still tossing around this notion that it might have not come out of the lab, even if the odds are minuscule, is because the logical next question is, was it released intentionally? And I think that…

when you see how fundamentally dishonest everybody involved is about it, to me that suggests that it’s likely that it was intentionally released. That’s my guesstimate.

Ahmad (07:40.042)
Yeah, I also think the fact that they had all these preparations and plan and, you know, in place just ready to roll out. I mean, the thing is that you cannot produce a vaccine in that short space. Everything was sequenced. All those vials, billions of vials are ready to go. I mean, just speaking to Headley Reese, supply chain manager, he goes, it’s impossible, the logistics, it’s just impossible. You can’t do that. It takes months and months, if not years to do this.

Clayton Baker (07:49.564)

Clayton Baker (08:06.417)

Ahmad (08:08.406)
So, you know, I don’t know. I think the whole thing was we’re gonna sell this vaccine, this mRNA technology, to sell the mRNA technology, we need to call it a vaccine. To sell the vaccine, we need a pandemic. Hey, bingo, how do we make a pandemic? Let’s make a pandemic. Go backwards, you know, and you know, who profits from it and who gained from it. That’s how I look at it, frankly.

Can I just quickly ask you something about that article? You said something about a fictional character, but I just want to ask you a few questions. The CEO of Pfizer, this Greek sounding chappy, he’s a veterinarian, isn’t he? He’s not a doctor, MD doctor. Am I right?

Clayton Baker (08:46.429)

Clayton Baker (08:53.356)
Veterinarian. Mm-hmm. Correct.

Ahmad (08:55.466)
And did this and so he’s got something in common with Tedros, the UN guy, Tedros Tedros. He’s a veterinarian as well and a so-called terrorist, apparently, according to some people. Anyway, this Alberto guy, Alberto Guga Gula, whatever his name is. Did he did he create a vaccine to kind of like de-sterilize pigs or not? Was that. That real?

Clayton Baker (09:02.728)

Clayton Baker (09:22.244)
Yeah, there’s a vaccine on the market that was designed to reduce what they call, I think it’s called boar taint. And boar taint is essentially a problem with pork or perceived problem with pork where people don’t like the taste of it because the testosterone levels in the

Boar meat is too high. That’s my understanding of it. That may not be 100% correct, but I think it’s pretty close. And so essentially it’s a, it’s a anti-testosterone vaccine that prevents boar taint in male pigs, but it also functionally sterilizes the animals.

Ahmad (10:20.379)

God, we really are dumb as anything, aren’t we human beings? What are we up to? What are we just messing around with nature? I don’t know about you, but I just feel like we are just so dumb. We’ve just got this tiny little bit of knowledge and we just think we’re so smart. We’re really not. We’re just playing God when we’re just.

Clayton Baker (10:33.673)

Clayton Baker (10:44.36)
Right, what’s the worst that could… Exactly, we’re gonna play God, what’s the worst that could happen? And it is astonishing, isn’t it? That a 20-year-old young woman, Mary Shelley, could write a book in whatever it was, 1810 or something, saying, you know, this is a bad idea. Don’t do this stuff. Don’t screw around with this stuff. It’s gonna unleash all kinds of terrible, horrible things.

And does anybody listen? No, we put on the mask for Halloween and goof around thinking we’re Frankenstein. That’s the message that we take away from these people 200 years ago that we’re smart enough to see what we were gonna get ourselves into. And more proximally, of course, you look at Aldous Huxley or you look at Orwell, and they’ve perfectly anticipated, very close to perfectly anticipated what we’re dealing with right now. And we don’t listen.

Ahmad (11:34.165)

Ahmad (11:41.322)

Clayton Baker (11:43.469)
It’s terrifying. I mean, it really is. And it’s disappointing, isn’t it?

Ahmad (11:47.966)
Yeah, it’s so funny. Just hearing that, where you’ve just talked about the pigs, I just feel like we’re really changing the whole environment of humanity with these chemicals, PBAs, estrogens in the water, contraceptive pills, whatever. Now these vaccines, we’re changing what it means to be a biological man and woman. And then there’s the psychological and societal indoctrination.

And people are getting really confused. The young children are, I think, getting confused for a reason. I also spoke to someone about antidepressants and how they cause something called PSSD, and it causes your genitals to become numb. It stops you feeling attraction for anyone. It stops you having any kind of libido. So as a young kid on antidepressants, you might not feel attracted to the opposite sex. Then you think maybe I’m homosexual. Then you realize actually, I don’t feel attracted to them either. Maybe that’s because I’m non-binary.

And then just suddenly it goes crazy. I mean, yesterday I had a conversation with someone and he was saying his son, his son, young son in his late teens, early twenties, can’t remember, basically identifies as a woman. So he dresses in a skirt and blouse and wears makeup. And his girlfriend identifies as a man and has short hair and wears boys clothes and calls herself a boy.

Clayton Baker (12:50.042)

Ahmad (13:15.934)
and there are a couple. I’m like, what has happened to this world? I mean, I’m just that age and generation where I’m like, what the frack? Like what? What is going on? What’s going on in this world today? I don’t recognize it. Compared to the world that I grew up in as a kid, I find it quite scary in some respects and just weird. It’s like one day I woke up and I’m like, yeah, sorry.

Clayton Baker (13:26.845)

Clayton Baker (13:39.654)
I’m scared for…

Clayton Baker (13:43.852)
No, no, I agree with you. I just one day you wake up and you’re in crazy world, right? You’re in clown world. And it is scary. It’s scarier more for me for future generations than for my own. I feel that I’m either on a solid enough footing or I’m just old and rigid enough. I don’t know which one it is. I’d like to think it’s the former, but who knows for sure. But I feel like I’ve got a handle on my view of the world.

But for better or for worse, hopefully for the better, but for future generations, it’s very difficult because it’s just so confusing. And you really do need reference points. I think this is one of the things that came to mind as you were talking about that, about these two young people. We’ve been doing some sciences and so on, medical science even, for hundreds and hundreds of years. And yes, most of it’s really come along in the last 100, 150 years. But…

psychology is really in its infancy. It’s really very, at a practical level, it’s an ancient thing. People understand that’s what common sense is. Common sense is having some sense of how to address the world in a meaningful way. And that’s what religion is. But I think that when you get rid of religion,

then you leave this void. And I don’t think we really have any good idea of what fills that void for better, for worse. I don’t see a lot of evidence that it’s for the better, but who knows? But I think that we have created a void that used to be filled by belief and by religion and traditional belief in other spheres, and now it’s a void.

Ahmad (15:10.338)

Clayton Baker (15:32.82)
It becomes a situation where and again, we’re also being constantly taught that there’s no absolute truth That truth is relative, you know my truth kind of thing speak your truth Okay, you know I’m not You know, I’m not of the type of person that says I’m gonna speak my truth. I’m gonna speak my carefully considered opinion and I’d like to think that

Ahmad (15:33.11)

Clayton Baker (15:59.72)
being on the earth as long as I have and trying to pay attention, I’m reasonably well educated that hopefully I’m right more often than I’m wrong. But even I’m gonna walk through life saying, I’m not speaking the truth and the truth is not mine. And so all of these kind of, and people say, well, they don’t really mean any harm by that, but this is what we’re dealing with. You know, the kid might be tempted to say, well, this is my truth. My truth is that even though I’ve got male parts

Ahmad (16:21.131)

Clayton Baker (16:28.856)
I’m female and even though my partner’s got female parts, she’s male and that’s our truth.

You really start playing with people’s heads at that point. You really start playing with their psychology in ways that I don’t think we’ve begun to understand. And I think that that’s really, at some level, that’s what we’re facing.

Ahmad (16:49.874)
I agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The moment you start playing around like this, who’s truth, what’s your truth, it’s my truth. No, there’s only reality and this reality in clown world. Anyway, my friend, I’m really sorry. I’m gonna have to wrap up soon because I need to go pick up my kids. Can you please tell me, yeah, please tell me, what advice would you, health or otherwise, would you give to your family?

Clayton Baker (17:09.107)
That’s very important.

Ahmad (17:17.782)
sitting all around you while you’re on your deathbed in your mid hundreds, before you pass on, what are you gonna tell them?

Clayton Baker (17:29.382)
I would tell them, do you want deep stuff or do you want really practical stuff?

Ahmad (17:34.914)
Whatever man, it’s your answer.

Clayton Baker (17:37.696)
I would say number one, take care of your health. You know, exercise, sleep, eat healthy, brush your teeth, floss your teeth. And then I would say, take care of, that’s your physical health. I would say, take care of your mental health and your spiritual health. So, you know, worship God in the way that matters to you. Okay, worship God in the way that’s meaningful to you. I would say.

Constantly question things. You know, those old bumper stickers they used to have in the USA, question authority, question things. It doesn’t mean you have to rebel against everything, but you need to question it. Dig a little deeper. Be a healthy skeptic. Healthy skepticism is really important. And then lastly, I would say trust in yourself. Trust in your own judgment. Trust in your own best assessment of any situation you find yourself in.

Ahmad (18:17.439)

Ahmad (18:24.89)

Clayton Baker (18:36.36)
The only way we can live life successfully, in my opinion, is you take the information that’s available to you at the time, you do your due diligence, and then you make the best decision you can with that due diligence based on your own assessment, not on someone else’s assessment, not on the herd, not on whatever else, not on external. You…

Ahmad (19:02.283)

Clayton Baker (19:02.996)
Take all that into careful consideration. It’s not always good to go against the crowd. But you have to make an informed decision yourself on all the things that you do. And the last thing I would tell them is you are an individual with value. You are an individual, your individual rights, your individual life has intrinsic value. You are not a cog in the machine. And I think that if you…

people remember those things and they work in that way. And one thing that goes around all the time now that I don’t say enough is be kind. Be kind whenever you have a choice and you can be kind or be unkind, be kind. It’s just the kindness does go an awfully long way and it’s the right thing to do. So that’s more than anyone’s gonna remember already, so I’ll stop.

Ahmad (19:42.41)

Ahmad (19:54.954)
That’s beautiful. Clayton, that’s beautiful. Everyone listening, I really hope you enjoyed that. Remember, if you wanna order any of my merch for Christmas presents, now’s the time because by the 5th of December, it’ll be too late. So you really need to order and get going, frankly. And I came up with some reasons why you should buy my merch. Clayton, I want you to tell me what you think of this. These are my reasons why you should buy my Christmas merch. Are you ready for this?

Clayton Baker (20:25.844)

Ahmad (20:25.866)
Right? Number one, the merch will make you look 10% cooler, 20% smarter, and at least 30% more beautiful. And not only does the science say so, but so do I, and I’m an expert. Right, number two, you will gain the mystical power of an invisible force field. The boosted individuals won’t know what hit them when you’re wearing my merch, saying freedom over fear and uncaptured and whatnot. Number three,

Express your beliefs without saying a word. Let the merch do the talking in a totally woke, passive aggressive manner. Number four, it’s a perfect gift for your loved ones because who wouldn’t want to be as awesome as you? Number five is an ideal gift for those you’re not so fond of. They’ll either love it or scratch their heads in confusion as you give them something from my merch store. Number six, it will seriously enhance

Clayton Baker (21:05.321)
Ha ha.

Ahmad (21:24.394)
my grifting credentials which currently are pretty shit. Number seven is like a secret handshake, but even cooler. Wearing my merch is an exclusive club membership. Number eight, boost your fashion game from meh, from meh to oh yeah, with our dazzling merch. And number nine is not just merch, it’s a lifestyle upgrade. Join the revolution in comfort and style. Number 10, act now and you’ll not only support us,

but you’ll also become the trendsetter your friends wish they were. Now if that doesn’t convince you to buy my merch, I don’t know what the hell does. And to all my supporters and to all the people helping me out there, you know, much love, you know, like Mark, Mark Bircher, you know, God bless you and all the other people. Thank you so much. And I’ll put all the links for Clayton.

on the website where you can find him and his wonderful articles. Honestly, he’s a great writer and you can see how eloquent he is and how articulate and what a good human being he is. Thank you so much, Clayton. Last words to you.

Clayton Baker (22:34.6)
I would say you’ve sold me on the merch. I’m gonna get right on the website and figure out what I need. So thank you very much for that. And I just wanna wish you a Merry Christmas and a happy holiday season. And I’m sure we’ll chat a little bit offline at some point in the near future. And it’s always a pleasure to be jumping across the pond to spend some time with you. And so…

Anytime in the future just say the word and I’ll be happy to be back

Ahmad (23:07.458)
Dude, amazing. Well, listen, we’ve got a spare bedroom. You’re more than welcome to it. You’ll have to duck when you get in, because the attic, but it’s there anytime, my friend. I mean it. All right, God bless you. Bye-bye.

Clayton Baker (23:17.944)
Okay, well great, thank you. Bye now.