Twitter/X ⁠Robert Malone
Substack ⁠Robert Malone MD

Ahmad (00:00.578)
First of all, good afternoon, Robert, and thank you so much for doing this. It’s our one year anniversary. Yeah, my pleasure. Let me show you something. This is from 19th of January, 2023. You probably don’t even remember, but I gave you a hug. And I don’t think you’re a huggy kind of guy. I sense that, but I don’t blame you. But I gave you a hug.

Robert Malone (00:08.16)
Thanks for having me on, Ahmed. Yeah. OK.

Ahmad (00:29.919)
and your wife was there?

Robert Malone (00:31.485)
I think my wife would say otherwise.

Ahmad (00:35.786)
Yeah, but this is 19th of January, 2023. Look at this, I had an amazing evening with fellow freedom fighters, including Dr. Robert Malone and his wife, Jill. I found my tribe and they are good. It was so nice. And the reason I gave you a hug, buster, because I explained at the time, my wife and I were on different pages during the pandemic, but it was when she…

listen to the podcast with you and Joe Rogan and Peter McCullough and Joe Rogan. She was like, oh, this is all bogus. So that’s why I give you a hug. Thank you. And, um, it was, it was a great day seeing you, but anyway, so now a lot has changed from that day. I am not an orthopedic surgeon anymore. I’m a bloody podcaster because I’ve been kicked out of my profession. Anyway, it is what it is, but things have also changed.

Robert Malone (01:13.461)
I remember.

Ahmad (01:30.882)
for you because man, like your, you know, Jill said recently, you know, I don’t know if you remember in a recent tweet you mentioned, she thinks you’ve made yourself too toxic to both sides of the COVID crisis debate. And it’s true, it’s like, what’s it, I’m so confused, like everybody has an opinion about you, but it’s not as favorable as what I.

Robert Malone (01:58.237)
Yes.

Ahmad (01:59.25)
I would have expected people to think Robert, how did you get here? What’s happened?

Robert Malone (02:05.22)
Yeah, there have been concerted campaigns to delegitimize me. And some of them are paid. Some of them are backed by people that I don’t know. You can’t identify who they are. That’s the nature of fifth generation warfare. And one of the key objectives is you can’t identify who the people are that are propagating the narrative.

The, I had some feedback from my Substack readers and I’m really trying not to name names now and be more forward looking. So I don’t wanna dive into the who, but I’ve written about that extensively. Yeah, there’s a number of actors. And as you say, the landscaping is, the landscape is shifting now. It’s shifting.

Ahmad (02:43.502)
Good, yeah.

Ahmad (02:50.583)
No, no, don’t.

Robert Malone (03:03.208)
in other ways that are in many ways more favorable to myself and others that have avoided this process of kind of ratcheting extremisms that have really disrupted, let’s say, common cause.

Robert Malone (03:30.904)
There’s a phenomena called a purity spiral that’s been going on. It’s related to groupthink and related to Jacobinism. This tendency of political movements to fragment as they impose purity tests. And it tends to drive movements towards more and more extreme positions.

And I’ve always been someone who has resisted those extreme positions and really insisted that I at least stay grounded in fact-based information that can be documented. I know the other day I was searching for something relating to an article that’s coming out. And

did a search on my name and some other parameters and brought up a lot of that old filth from corporate media, the old attacks from three years ago after the Joe Rogan broadcast. And it’s

Ahmad (04:37.61)
Yeah, I know, I’ve seen those. I’ve seen those from all, from the Atlantic and the New York Post and everything, you know. All having a go at you. Yeah.

Robert Malone (04:46.624)
Business Insider, yeah, Washington Post, New York Times, Mother Jones, Rolling Stone, et cetera, all the standard corporate media outlets. So, you know, it’s, it’s tiresome. That’s the truth. And this, this tendency that in part is driven by economics, in part, it’s driven by envy. And

competitiveness on the part of various people. And in one level, I can empathize, why should I have all this attention when they’re not getting that much attention? And why should I have all these followers on Substack and on X and Getter and Gab and Truth Social? But the truth is, the reason why I have those followers is I’ve worked for it.

Ahmad (05:41.622)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Robert Malone (05:46.804)
We put out a substack essay every single day, including Saturday and Sunday. We treat it as a business. We treat our subscribers as clients, our paid subscribers particularly. And we run our operation like a business remembering that I ran a consulting shop for 30 years. And that’s just how I approach the world with focus on deliverables and understanding who the client is.

doing my best to provide value for the client. And so these people that are complaining about these things, they often are not really employing the skill set to build their own businesses. And I don’t know why they feel like they need to opine about me and my business and my activities. It’s…

I’m quite dysfunctional and pulls them away from their own focus. And it’s, I guess it’s my bad that I’ve responded to them. I felt the need because I’ve seen the erosion that comes with some of these attacks. You know, notoriously, just as one example in the last year, I had somebody assert that I had

directed the CIA to put out an assassination hit on them by poisoning and implored quite loudly that Bobby Kennedy should intervene with me to get me to call the CIA off. Obviously that was blatantly absurd. Anybody that knows anything about how CIA operates, there’s no way that a civilian could call in a hit, let alone a hit on an American citizen.

But it was translated into four different languages and actively weaponized against me. I had wave after wave after wave of hate come at me. And that’s just the way it goes. Yeah, sure.

Ahmad (07:48.686)
So can I just interject here? Let me interject, let me interject, let me interject. Cause I like to have conversations, not interviews. So I can relate to this a little bit buddy, because recently someone did a video of me, I’m just a small fish, but even a small fish like me, someone was like, how’s this guy suddenly got a following on Twitter and how’s he got this professional podcast and he’s controlled? And I was like, what?

I’m like, what? I’ve lost my job and my career. I’m totally financially ruined. And here I am being accused of controlled opposition. And I don’t attack people back. I don’t do anything. I just laugh. It’s just incredulous. It’s crazy. I just…

Robert Malone (08:34.556)
Yeah, the controlled opposition accusation is a form of concern trolling. As are often the complaints that, why did you take the jab, Dr. Malone, when you know so much? A lot of that’s concern trolling. The accusation of you being controlled opposition, which I…

Ahmad (08:50.382)
Ahem.

Robert Malone (09:03.884)
I have, yes, last week I interviewed with three different Canadian podcasters, journalists groups, and two of the three, one was this national citizens inquiry, but the other two both had exactly the same attacks on them that you’ve just related. In many ways, what’s happened during the arc of the last three plus years.

is that I’ve been out on the front edge, kind of on the on the bleeding edge of a lot of the propaganda techniques and Cywar, Cyops activities. And so I’ve been getting hit early by these. And now as others like yourself have come up, we’re seeing the same tactics that were deployed on

Robert Malone (10:02.52)
is something that was developed by the FBI during the 1960s. The technical term for this is bad jacketing. It’s a known developed strategy by the FBI. It’s obviously been deployed very actively during the COVID crisis. And its intention is to delegitimize people, people particularly that are perceived as having some influence.

And so it’s a form of both bullying and rumor-mongering in which what is spread is disinformation intended to cast doubt or shade on somebody by asserting that they are working for the opposition. Technically, what is controlled opposition? It’s very slippery. It’s an easy thing to say. It’s repeated again and again.

Ahmad (10:46.902)
Yeah.

Robert Malone (10:59.66)
which makes it a form of neuro-linguistic programming, just like safe and effective repeated again and again without actually any qualifiers.

Ahmad (11:05.494)
Make it stick. Make the mud stick.

Robert Malone (11:11.496)
Yeah, so if you say it often enough, it gets into people’s brains. But what does it actually mean? Technically, controlled opposition is somebody who will join a movement or participate in a movement and then will act to disrupt the movement at some crucial moment in time by withdrawing of their support or…

Ahmad (11:16.223)
Mmm.

Robert Malone (11:41.568)
in some way flipping the narrative unexpectedly, suddenly endorsing the other side, et cetera. So this is what the term is supposed to mean. And so if, you know, I’m aware of people that aren’t accused of being controlled opposition, some who are, who actually do these things that…

I know, and I’m not gonna name names of people in the UK that are high profile, that have actively attempted to disrupt various meetings or testimony, et cetera. So the term is bandied about, it is absolutely weaponized, it is absolutely used.

Ahmad (12:13.774)
Yeah, don’t name names.

Robert Malone (12:37.448)
aggressively to delegitimize people. And it is a known tactic designed to disrupt and fragment opposition movements, opposing government interests or large business interests.

Ahmad (12:57.774)
Well, let’s try and help your reputation a little bit. It’s really annoying. I was gonna talk about your farm and everything, but my friend, Mike Farris, beat me too. You went on his podcast, Coffee and Mike. You seem to know all the people I know. Hi, Rez, as well. You’re on his music video. I’d love to be on his music video. These are all good people that you know and I know. But it’s funny, I went on Twitter and I’ll show you, and I said, I’m gonna be speaking to Dr. Malone.

What should I ask him? And holy moly, like within a few hours, I got like 200 questions. And I went on my sub stack, I got another hundred questions. Now clearly, clearly Robert, we don’t have time to go through 300 questions. But what I’m trying to say is, I was quite taken aback by how many people responded. But if it’s okay, I’m gonna bash through a few questions. Is that okay? Let’s just skip through.

Robert Malone (13:56.756)
Yeah.

Ahmad (13:57.374)
A few meaty questions. Now, listen, yeah, well, you’re not going to have a chance for the next three ones because they’re yes, no questions, buster. So don’t give me political answers. Just stick to a yes or a no. All right, number one, buster, was there a global pandemic? Yes or no?

Robert Malone (14:00.012)
I’ll do my best not to be too long-winded.

Robert Malone (14:09.286)
Okay.

Robert Malone (14:20.992)
Yes. Pandemic is as pandemic is bringing. Yes.

Ahmad (14:24.578)
No, no, it was just yes or no. It was just yes or no. Just yes or no. Right, number two. Are you a covered person under the PrEP Act?

Robert Malone (14:38.637)
I don’t understand that question. So, I don’t, I…

Ahmad (14:41.822)
It’s yes or no. Under the PREP Act, are you a covered person?

Robert Malone (14:49.792)
I don’t know what clause in the PREP Act this is referring to, so I can’t answer it.

Ahmad (14:55.042)
Just generally, the PrEP Act, that you’re, as a covered person, you have immunity. Is a yes or a no.

Robert Malone (15:05.016)
immunity from what? I don’t have any immunity.

Ahmad (15:09.374)
Okay, number three, do you have any current contracts and confidentiality agreements with the US government?

Ahmad (15:20.91)
Okay, see this is helping.

Robert Malone (15:23.28)
I have existing non-disclosure agreements, and those typically last for five to 10 years.

Ahmad (15:32.278)
How many more years are left on them?

Robert Malone (15:36.728)
Probably another four or five. I have disclosed a number of things that I probably shouldn’t have, but it’s been in the interest of trying to, get information out and be transparent.

Ahmad (15:52.863)
Okay. Did you and your wife, Jill, write a book titled Novel Coronavirus, a Practical Guide for Preparation and Protection?

Robert Malone (16:02.295)
Yes.

Ahmad (16:05.186)
That was published in early 2020, is that correct?

Robert Malone (16:10.028)
February of 2020, it was published on Amazon as an Amazon book. We intended to update it. Remember that we started working on that in the first week in January when I was alerted about the novel coronavirus. The title was, novel coronavirus, prepare and protect yourself. And Jill just worked her can off on that thing. And about 100 pages.

Ahmad (16:36.994)
Dude, I need to hire you guys. I need to hire you guys to write my book. I need to write a book called Doc Malik’s Simple Guide to Good Health. I’ve been sitting on it for an hour and I’ve not even typed one letter yet.

Robert Malone (16:39.872)
Well-cited.

Robert Malone (16:47.028)
We have three books in the queue right now, so it would take a while to get through. We’ve got one on Cywar, one on marriage and homesteading, and one that I’m teaming with a federal investigator on that has to do with a lot of the documentation that is yet to be

events.

Ahmad (17:18.026)
How did you manage to write, edit, footnote, typeset, proofread, and print the book in just a matter of few weeks? What prompted, and what prompted you to write it?

Robert Malone (17:28.064)
Because I’m, see, you don’t understand what I do for a living or used to do. I’m, I’m an extremely good proposal writer with the full or remember, I’ve been an academic my whole life, so I, I write stuff and if you don’t think I can write fast, we have about a thousand essays on Substack now, we put a granular essay out on a daily basis. I’m, I’m extremely.

Ahmad (17:33.166)
Tell me.

Ahmad (17:51.31)
Wow, wow.

Robert Malone (17:57.324)
good and prolific writer with the full academic toolkit of citation managers, etc. I’m extremely good at doing what I do. That’s why I get paid. That’s why I’ve literally won billions of dollars of contracts for my clients, often on very short notice.

Ahmad (18:16.238)
Mm.

Ahmad (18:20.119)
Okay next question yes or no have you ever worked for the CIA?

Robert Malone (18:26.572)
Never.

Neither have I worked for DARPA.

Ahmad (18:29.236)
And this is an

Ahmad (18:33.556)
Okay, what contacts do you have routinely with the CIA or intermediaries you suspect or know to work for the CIA?

Robert Malone (18:33.7)
Those are all lies.

Robert Malone (18:44.616)
I used to have a number of them, most of those I’ve blown during the COVID crisis. Some of them I’ve outed. I have had recently contacts from someone who was active CIA at the time they contacted me.

Robert Malone (19:16.252)
In the special group that the CIA set up to evaluate the origin of the virus, and that person has left the agency and is now employed in the private sector because of their activities, they were not allowed to come back in and be active in the agency.

So that’s the last tie I have. He still periodically corresponds with me, but he’s no longer with the agency.

Ahmad (19:51.978)
Right, so next…

What makes you think there’s a pandemic? So according to lots of different people, who very smart people, Denny Rancourt, Stefan Lomborg, and many others, there’s actually no increase in all-cause mortality. There’s no increase in all-cause mortality in 2020. Denny Rancourt’s looked at every state, mortality by week, age, and sex. Let me just finish, let me finish, let me finish.

Robert Malone (20:09.269)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Robert Malone (20:16.092)
This is true. OK, so hold on. Stop. No, I know all that bullshit. OK, listen, a pandemic is something that is declared and it involves an infectious disease. It doesn’t require that there be a certain level of mortality. So what we’re arguing about here is the semantics of a term, a definition.

that this was declared as a pandemic, it was treated as a pandemic, it resulted in a circulation of an infectious disease, a novel infectious virus. It was of low pathogenicity with a mortality rate of about 0.02%. But that has nothing to do with whether or not it was a pandemic. So what they’re arguing is characteristics of a pandemic. They’re arguing that

They hold the definition of what is a pandemic. And based on their definition, this does not meet those criteria. I call bullshit on that.

Ahmad (21:25.258)
Why? Explain that to me, Robert, because a pandemic, a deadly pandemic is a deadly pandemic. This is nothing worse than a bad flu season. I know that that’s true.

Robert Malone (21:31.768)
You didn’t say deadly pandemic, okay? No, this is just, you’re splitting hairs, okay? This, you’re gone down a rabbit hole and pretty soon we’re gonna be talking about whether this is a flat earth or whether or not viruses exist. You wanted to make that one too? Okay.

Ahmad (21:46.086)
No! Oh god no! No! God, I get attacked for that already. I get attacked for not, you know, challenging the no virus thing, so please let’s not go there. Apparently I-

Robert Malone (21:56.736)
Or you wanna argue about germ theory versus terrain theory. That’s another bullshit argument.

Ahmad (22:00.347)
No, no, I’m already, I’m already accused of controlled opposition because I don’t say that viruses don’t exist. And I’m like, look, I don’t want to go.

Robert Malone (22:07.096)
So I never said this was a deadly pandemic. You asked me a flat out yes, no question. Now you’re setting me up for a line of attack. This was defined as a pandemic by the WHO and by the health agencies throughout the world. It definitely was a novel coronavirus that spread throughout the world.

Ahmad (22:13.77)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, there’s no setting up. Robert, Robert.

Robert Malone (22:35.836)
In terms of its mortality and morbidity, it was largely the consequence of public health mismanagement, not the primary disease. But having been infected by Wuhan 1 in February of 2020, I can tell you that this was not the flu. Now, we’ve had progressive evolution of this to become more highly infectious and less pathogenic.

as is the normal trajectory for any virus when it enters a new host. But was this a pandemic? It was a globally circulating novel coronavirus that entered a new species and was associated with a quote pandemic health response by WHO and the health

Ahmad (23:02.595)
Mm.

Robert Malone (23:30.952)
organizations of virtually every nation in the world. Now, I’m very familiar with Dennis’s work, and I completely agree with him that the, as well as Ed Dowd, that the excess all-cause mortality doesn’t show up in 2020. But excess all-cause mortality is a very significant end.

Ahmad (23:36.43)
So I think the reason why some people worry about…

Robert Malone (23:59.028)
And it overlooks morbidity. Okay. He’s not catching morbidity. He’s catching mortality. That’s what he’s analyzing on because those are the data that he has.

Ahmad (24:09.89)
So it’s just the reason why I’m saying this. A lot of people say that the problem that we’re facing now is that the WHO, the UN, Big Pharma, government, you name it, want to perpetuate this idea of deadly pandemics. We’ve got an epidemic of pandemics and they just want to call pandemic whenever they want. And…

Robert Malone (24:29.004)
So that’s true, but going down this rabbit hole doesn’t serve that purpose of clarifying that. There’s no question that disease X that is now being spun up, or monkeypox that I was the first person out of the gate calling bullshit on, or now the white lung disease that turns out to essentially be a nothing burger, just…

you know, another case of micro plasma circulating, which I also called out right away. These are absolutely being weaponized to support an agenda. And it’s really multiple agendas. And I have, you know, what bothers me about these people that pick away at these kinds of things is I’ve been writing about this for three years. I got a book out, okay? I’ve got a thousand sub stacks out. I was talking about the World Economic Forum.

when I was being told by Steve Bannon to stay in my lane and shut up, okay? That these people that are Johnny-come-lately’s that have suddenly believed that they’ve discovered some fundamental truth, when I’ve been writing about it and podcasting about it for three plus years, and then they start attacking me because I’m not as extreme as they are, this is this spiral of purity that I’m talking about.

Ahmad (25:55.666)
Right, so what are the reasons?

Robert Malone (25:56.328)
The other day I had a high profile individual who lives in London attack me because I asserted that the vaccines are FDA regulated. That’s another one of these crazy theories. And the problem is these people that go out on the fringes and advance things that they can’t substantiate, they don’t document or it’s their personal pet theory or their little clique.

What that does is it splinters fragments and delegitimizes all the rest of us.

Ahmad (26:30.85)
So, okay, I was going to say, what are the different justifications that they want to bring in all these pandemics? You’re saying that there’s reasons, multiple factors.

Robert Malone (26:41.304)
So here’s the problem with asking that question and me speculating about it, is that I don’t speculate about what people’s intents are unless I have documentation. So for instance, one of the theories is the depopulation agenda, and I stayed away from that until I published an essay concerning the Kissinger Report, which is U.S. policy.

which explicitly lays down a population restriction or depopulation agenda. That is US policy. And once I saw that, once I learned of that report, then I could say absolutely it is part of US policy that the global population shall be restricted to eight billion or less. That’s a documented item. So now I can talk about that. Is this virus…

Ahmad (27:37.891)
Mm.

Robert Malone (27:41.956)
or this vaccine product, quote unquote, a means to an end to advance that agenda. Show me the documentation for that, because I haven’t seen it, okay? So I’m not gonna speculate about whether or not that’s the case. Now, there is no question, and I covered Ernst Wolff’s theories on the economic agenda that is going on here, three years ago, I think it was, at least two years ago.

and you can look up Ernst Wolff, it’s one of the most popular substacks I ever put out. There’s no question that there was a massive upward transfer of wealth. There’s no question that there has been a financial agenda. Whether this was pre-planned and the whole reason for this was to advance that financial agenda.

Ahmad (28:11.198)
Mm.

Robert Malone (28:39.584)
which appears to include conversion to CBDC, Central Bank Digital Currency, and a number of other instruments, was that planned, and we could name various organizations, Club of Rome or whatever, was that an intentional planned initiative to advance a financial objective or series of objectives having to do with central banks?

I haven’t seen those documents, shown to me. We can speculate. It’s a hypothesis. There’s a number of data points that are consistent with that hypothesis, and it’s not mutually exclusive. More proximal is what were the origins of the virus? That we’re starting to get down to brass taxon. And there’s been all these other theories about whether it was released during the military games, et cetera. That…

Ahmad (29:21.855)
Okay.

Robert Malone (29:37.428)
right now is unsubstantiated rumor. What we do have documentation for is a cascade of events that happened in the fall of 2019, involving the Wuhan Institute of Virology. And before that, preceding that, involved EcoHealth Alliance, Peter Dazic, and USAID, and DITRA, I broke the DITRA story, and NIH and others.

including the CIA interacting with the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

So those are the things that we can document. And we can go through all of these things, you know, one by one by one.

Ahmad (30:15.71)
Okay, can I just, I know let’s just talk about, let’s just talk about what you said about the FDA. So I had Sasha Latapova on the podcast and she was very clear about this. These are countermeasures and it’s DOD and DARPA and.

Robert Malone (30:32.768)
Yeah, you know what? Sasha Latoeva says a lot of shit, and she attacks me all the time. There’s a lot of people that think that Sasha Latoeva actually is controlled opposition. She makes a lot of statements that are unsubstantiated, and if you look at the documents, they are not nearly what she asserts they are. There’s no question. I’m I am.

Ahmad (30:38.558)
Okay, I didn’t know that.

Ahmad (30:45.922)
So.

Ahmad (30:55.086)
Okay, but can I just clarify then?

Robert Malone (30:58.552)
Unlike Satya, I’m actually an expert in government affairs and writing government contracts and regulatory affairs. I know what I’m talking about. I have written OTA contracts. I know those clauses intimately. I also did the deep dive into the emergency health regulation documents and what they stipulate. They stipulate for declaration of emergency

uh that the DOD will be involved. Now, Saatcha makes wild claims that this is a DOD controlled operation. I haven’t seen that documentation. What I’ve seen is the clear documentation that Operation Warp Speed was conceived of by Bob Cadlich and Peter Marks. That is well documented.

Neither one of those are DOD personnel. Bob Cadlec may well be CIA. I don’t know that for a fact, but there’s a lot of things around him that suggest that that’s the case. But he is not DOD. Okay, those are the two that created Operation Warp Speed. And we’re now deep in the bowels of nitpicking out what actually transpired, who did what. And the what she so, for instance,

I’m not sure if he’s a lieutenant colonel or a colonel now, that was appointed to head up the Moderna focus group by U.S. government because he had prior experience in Ebola, during which time I mentored him.

came to me about a year and a half ago and seemed to want to unburden his soul about what transpired in those meetings and the dose selection for Moderna. But he was not driving the bus. The DOD was not driving the bus. It was essentially a selection of DC bureaucrats working in public-private partnership with Moderna. That’s the facts.

Robert Malone (33:15.992)
Okay, so Sajak can spout off all she wants and she can attack me until the cows come home. But I know what I’m talking about.

Ahmad (33:21.886)
Okay. I think, I think I didn’t mean to mention, I didn’t realize she was attacking you by the way. I don’t know about all this stuff. So I think it’s, it’s triggered you a little bit. So let’s

Robert Malone (33:30.796)
She and Jane Ruby and others just go on and on and on.

Ahmad (33:35.126)
Right, let’s move on from that. So let’s move on to mRNA jabs. So I had Headley Reese on, and he talks about pharmaceutical production and all that kind of stuff. He said, there’s no way these jabs came out within a year. No warp speed or not. It’s physically impossible, physically impossible to get these gene-based vaccines out so quickly.

Robert Malone (33:59.803)
He’s wrong. Okay, he’s just wrong.

Ahmad (34:01.174)
Because you can’t compress it within a year. It’s impossible. All those billions of vials, the manufacturing.

Robert Malone (34:05.112)
No, that’s why we’re in this mess. Okay, the manufacturing. So what, yeah, another case of a guy that doesn’t actually know what he’s talking about. Okay, this industry has been developed for about 15 to 20 years now. Remember, my patents expired years ago. They were filed in 1990, 1989 and 1990. All of these patents, okay?

So they’re all expired. This industry, what happened was that Merck took the license from Bicel. Merck ran with it, particularly under Margaret Liu. She was the one, by the way, at the WHO that headed up the committee that decided as this was breaking in 2020, that once they got this tech out, then it would be considered a platform technology.

There’s a company called Aldevron.

that is in Fargo, North Carolina, I’m sorry, North Dakota. So it has operations in North and South Dakota. I actually mentored the CEO of Aldebaran years and years and years ago. Okay. He gave me an award for being the originator of DNA vaccine technology and NMRN vaccines.

He made that company made a decision to focus on development of mRNA as a therapeutic agent. Oh, it must be 20 years ago. They’ve been spinning up their manufacturing facilities ever since under contract to a number of pharmaceutical companies. Anybody that says that this was all done in a year has no idea of what’s been going on in the industry. Okay.

Robert Malone (36:07.764)
It’s just they’re clueless. This has been developed for a long time now. Aldebaran has been working on the manufacturing process. They were the ones that operated process number one for Pfizer, the PCR amplification based manufacturing. And then they could not scale it sufficiently. And so it was tossed over to Lanza, a major commercial manufacturer who went back to the.

Ahmad (36:09.646)
Okay, so.

Robert Malone (36:33.332)
manufacturing process that I had pioneered in 1989, 1988. These people that make these assertions are ignorant. I don’t know what else to say. Now it’s absolutely true that under operation warp speed, a large fraction of the core time consuming steps that are necessary.

Ahmad (36:38.282)
out with the plasmas and E. coli.

Robert Malone (36:58.524)
and have been developed over decades to ensure safety and effectiveness of vaccine products to the extent that they’re done. And that’s a whole other story. But the globally accepted norms, regulatory norms, for these products were absolutely bypassed. And one of the key questions is whether or not the FDA and particularly Peter Marks, who’s an oncologist…

He’s not a vaccinologist. He’s not an immunologist. He’s not a molecular virologist. He’s an oncologist. He’s the guy that set up OWS together with Bob Cadlich. And he is the guy in charge of CBERS, Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research. And in this recent correspondence with Joe Latopo, we learned that Peter Marks is clueless that he doesn’t understand that there is a thing called DNA transfection.

There are tens of thousands of citations. It’s routinely used in every laboratory in the world that does any kind of molecular work using catenoclopids, using these specific technologies. And so his assertion and that of Paul Offit that DNA can’t get into the nucleus is patently absurd. It demonstrates a complete ignorance or just…

willingness to bald-face lie. And so these people that have ostensibly been responsible for the regulatory oversight have thrown away the rule book without even understanding what it is they’re playing with. And that’s how it got jammed through so quickly.

Ahmad (38:29.71)
So Robert, I know, I know.

Ahmad (38:41.538)
So Robert, so.

Okay, so, okay, I’ve got so many questions, so many questions I just wanna crack on. So basically, I looked into mRNA technology and LNPs and went through the PubMed surgeries. And over 10 years, there’s so much research there, but it always ends with the conclusion, there’s a lot more work to do, a lot more studies to do. And as a platform, it was still very much experimental. And there was still always, there was like, we have concerns, we need further studies and blah, especially about LNPs.

How did it get from something that was?

Robert Malone (39:17.44)
You do understand that those are largely academics, and most of this work has occurred in the industry. It doesn’t get published. It comes out in patents.

Ahmad (39:20.799)
Yeah, but how did it?

Ahmad (39:25.91)
I know, but how did it get from something that was an experimental platform to treat cancers to a vaccine developed by several companies, literally within weeks of each other, and rolled out to billions of people for the first time against a respiratory virus? Did alarm bells not go ringing off in your head?

Robert Malone (39:48.172)
Because, no, Ahmed, you’re just down another bloody conspiracy thing, just like you started off talking about how quickly Jill and I put the book out. This has been, infectious disease research has been one of the lead applications for this technology since I came up with the idea. It is clearly the entry-level application. Cancer is a…

Ahmad (39:55.126)
What’s the conspiracy?

Robert Malone (40:15.776)
There’s so many layers of nuance here. Cancer is a very attractive target because it is dead easy to get into phase one studies. And the problem with, and I’ve watched this my entire career, the boneyard of biotech is littered with cancer therapeutic companies because it is really easy to raise capital.

and to get into phase one, which is a key milestone, regulatory milestone for cancer. And so you have people throwing themselves at cancer again and again and again, because they see it as a low-hanging fruit, and particularly with immunologic approaches. But the problem is that they repeatedly fail, because cancer is a very complex disease. It’s a multifaceted disease. It’s not just one thing. And the…

immunologic responses associated with…

Robert Malone (41:17.412)
metastatic malignancy in particular, are very complex. They typically involve immunologic downregulation, and then often these cancer patients are compromised by multiple prior chemotherapeutic regimens that destroy a lot of their bone marrow reservoir and their ability of their immune system to respond. And so you’re left, if you’re gonna try to enter that market, with trying to move a drug into a patient population that has already been

had their immune systems whacked by the approved treatment protocols involving a variety of different essentially chemotherapeutics, chemotoxins. And so it’s easy to get in, it’s easy to raise money, it’s easy to raise hype. You could ride the whole pump and dump roller coaster really easy with cancer in

particularly cancer gene therapy, cancer vaccines, that’s dead easy to raise capital on because everybody has got a nephew, a niece, or an uncle that’s died of cancer, including all the rich people. So it’s easy to raise capital. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, real companies have been plugging away at doing what they perceive.

as addressing major market areas, which includes veterinary vaccines and human vaccines. Human vaccines have become incredibly lucrative because they, once you have a product that reaches market, you essentially have a monopoly in perpetuity, particularly if you can get it in the pediatric vaccine schedule. And furthermore, in the United States, you have indemnification. So what’s not to like?

Ahmad (43:02.709)
Yeah.

Ahmad (43:09.279)
1986 Act.

Robert Malone (43:10.116)
This is Novartis got out of the business Novartis got out of the business because they just didn’t see the

Robert Malone (43:20.952)
profit margins that they were looking for, remembering that Novartis only goes in on new product opportunities that represent a market of a billion or more globally, annually, okay? But they were in vaccines and got out. But a lot of these other companies like Pfizer have made strategic investments and have, and Merck is another one, that Sanofi, Pasteur is another one.

GSK is another one. They have set up major vaccine divisions. They’ve been plugging away at using this technology as well as self-replicating RNA for decades now. What happened here was that there were major investments by the German government and the United States government that go back about a decade plus. The United States governments came through DARPA.

and they basically created Moderna. And they have wanted to advance this technology because it’s been one of a small number of technology options that they believe would allow them to rapidly respond to a novel infectious disease, whether it is a bioengineered one or it is an emerging infectious disease because of name your thing.

forest disruption, climate change, whatever the cause is, disease X, overpopulation, blah, blah. But they want to have a tech that can basically be a Lego, like swap in a sequence into a platform. So you go direct from gene to vaccine. I wrote one of the first papers on this. And they have desperately wanted this. And what they believed was that

Post-electrical fields could do this. They invested quite a bit in Inovio, a company that I helped start, and did the original American incorporation on. They’ve also invested a ton in monoclonal antibodies. They believe that monoclonal antibodies would give them, and the monoclonal antibodies were a preferred solution because they have a circulating half-life of, depending on the modification, a couple of months, and…

Ahmad (45:23.616)
Mm.

Robert Malone (45:43.481)
to put a point on it. If you’re special ops and you’re gonna go into a hot zone, you can get the jab, go into the hot zone, do your business, come back out, and the pharmaceutical is washed out of your system by the time you get to go back and kiss your wife. So that’s their idea of a perfect product. Unfortunately, as we saw,

You remember that there was a huge push for monoclonal antibodies early on with Regeneron and everything else, and they didn’t pan out. The virus evolved too quickly and escaped those. Now, my objection from the outset was that the vaccines weren’t gonna work because the virus evolves too rapidly, and the history of coronavirus vaccines has been one of failure after failure after failure. But for whatever reason,

Ahmad (46:21.55)
Can I ask you something? No, no, quick, can I quick? I wanna…

Ahmad (46:35.21)
Yeah.

Robert Malone (46:38.7)
They decided to jam this through the system. And that is inexplicable.

Ahmad (46:44.906)
Yeah, I know. Tell me something. Do you have faith in this mRNA platform technology?

Alright, or is it gone now?

Robert Malone (46:53.324)
I have faith in God. Other than that, forget about it. Faith is a funny word to use.

Ahmad (46:57.346)
Do you, I know, okay, do you trust this platform moving forward and think there’s still scope for it and there’s a future in it and that we should still invest our time?

Robert Malone (47:04.52)
Obviously not.

Robert Malone (47:08.624)
Are there, are there, so what’s happened is that a technology concept that had merit, that I came up with when I was 28 years old, okay, has now with its first real trials in the sense of what we’ve seen over the last three years, been demonstrated to have multiple fundamental problems.

Now, some of those problems I knew existed before we ever went into this. This is why I abandoned catenic lipid-based delivery in vivo in the 90s and moved on to other systems like direct injection and post-electrical fields before I left R&D and changed my career path to becoming an expert in clinical development, regulatory affairs, project management, all the stuff necessary.

to bring a product to fore rather than discovery research. But back then, I couldn’t overcome the toxicity. And it appears clear that although Peter Kullis assured me that they had and others did, including Peter Marks, they didn’t overcome the toxicity either. And they made a series of statements having to do with the durability of the RNA and the distribution of the product that were false, demonstrably false.

Ahmad (48:37.63)
Is that why you took the shots? Did they reassure you, even though you knew historically they weren’t safe? Did they give you personal assurance that they were safe?

Robert Malone (48:37.92)
It was clear they were false when…

Robert Malone (48:46.88)
I didn’t know that these shots were not safe. I knew that the technology that I had worked on, I could not overcome the toxicology. I was specifically assured by Peter Kullis and Peter Marks that the data demonstrated that in fact they were safe and those problems had been overcome. And I mean, how many hundreds of times do I have to answer this bloody question?

Ahmad (49:13.446)
I know, I know, I know.

Robert Malone (49:13.544)
I took the shot for three simple reasons. Number one, I had long COVID. And there was a lot of buzz that the additional boost in immune response associated with the shots might allow me to clear that. It was quite debilitating for those who say that this is just the flu. Again, I call bullshit on that. They don’t know what they’re talking about. I do, I lived it. Okay? So number one, immune stimulant.

hypothesized to assist in clearance of long COVID. Number two, assurance by experts that I respected in the field that things have progressed since I’d worked on it and the problems had been overcome. Number three, I needed to travel internationally and there was no way I was gonna be able to do it. If I hadn’t been able to travel internationally, you probably wouldn’t know who I am. The International COVID Summit in Rome wouldn’t have happened.

I was one of the key organizers for it, et cetera, et cetera. I’ve traveled all over the world. I could not have done that if I didn’t have that stupid vaccine card. And on injection number two, I developed a series of adverse events, which at the time were virtually unknown, but which now, and I spoke about them at the time, people forget, I mean, I’ve done hundreds and hundreds of podcasts. Um.

This is all documented in the Headwinds series episode that Epic Times broadcast, you know, from well over two years ago, okay? But I developed probably myopericarditis. I certainly had hypertension and elevated heart rate. I was life-threatening. I had systolic hypertension to 220.

I’m now on beta blockers and medically monitored. I developed, of course, tinnitus, restless leg syndrome, various neuropathies, and a number of other symptoms that at the time no one had ever heard of. But now we know those are all common adverse events.

Ahmad (51:29.634)
So, and you know who else knew? Pfizer also knew by the way.

Robert Malone (51:29.744)
And when I tracked down, when Jill tracked down my batch numbers, it turns out that my second batch was one of the known bad batches.

Ahmad (51:40.43)
Pfizer also knew about all these adverse effects by the way. They had pages and pages of them.

Robert Malone (51:44.392)
Actually, you’re a little bit off on that. The thing that’s often cited by the likes of Sacha and others from those original documents were actually not in Naomi Wolf. This is different from the documents that are in the dossier that was intended to be suppressed. But in the list of adverse events that I’ve shared with many others in my speeches

Ahmad (52:02.542)
Hmm.

Robert Malone (52:15.324)
is like 20 pages. What that is if for anybody that actually understands clinical research, when you’re gonna go into this, the sponsor lists any potential adverse events. And they have an incentive to make that list as long as possible. Because if they are not previously disclosed as potential adverse events.

then in a normal situation, if they occur, that will trigger a stop to the clinical trial, unanticipated adverse event, serious adverse event. Okay, so they have an incentive to make that list as long and comprehensive as they possibly can. And that is what that list is. That is them speculating, these are all the things that could happen, not the things that they knew were going to happen. So the people that have weaponized that,

Just once again, they don’t know what they’re talking about. They’re not clinical research specialists. They’re not trained in this field. They’re looking at little fragments of information and speculating about their meaning. That doesn’t mean that the list isn’t important. That doesn’t mean that a lot of those events have in fact manifested, but it’s not what people assert it to be.

Ahmad (53:31.522)
You know what the push with all the vaccines, do you question vaccines as a whole and the whole childhood schedule? Do you look at the whole industry and think what is the sacred cow all about? Or do you still have trust in vaccines?

Robert Malone (53:48.248)
In fact, I wrote the introduction to the French version of Turtles All the Way Down, if you’re familiar with that book.

Ahmad (53:54.25)
Well, I am very familiar with that book. That’s anonymous.

Robert Malone (53:58.76)
Okay, so look at my intro if you can read French. And you’ll see that I not only concur with the analysis, but take it a step further in my introduction. So there’s no question that the vaccine schedule has exploded, consequent to the decisions that were made to provide indemnification. And the basically the, how do I say this?

uh, I’m, I’m reaching for the correct word. Basically, the vaccine industry held the US government, uh, in a untenable position where they said, we’re going to stop making vaccines unless you provide us with indemnification. And I think it was Reagan that rolled over on that. And that together with the, uh,

Ahmad (54:51.327)
Yeah, it was. It was.

Robert Malone (54:56.96)
Vaccines for Children legislation, which makes it so that if you get any vaccine through the gauntlet of FDA and CDC down to the pediatric population, you get an additional layer of indemnification and you get automatic purchase and distribution through the Vaccines for Children program. And there is no congressional oversight on that. Basically, it is the only program that I know of where

Ahmad (55:15.63)
Mmm.

Robert Malone (55:27.492)
a federal agency is given carte blanche to spend whatever it wants to spend. And all it has to do is push it through some committee and get the director of the CDC to approve the vaccine for children and then it becomes a cash cow forever. And the government purchases it and distributes it and furthermore mandates it for children all across the United States.

And so, no surprise, we’ve seen an explosion of that vaccine schedule because of these perverse incentives. That absolutely has to be re-examined. And the critique that Bobby Kennedy has made, as have others, Adam Suri, etc., that the government doesn’t have the data on the drug-drug

Ahmad (56:08.683)
Yeah.

Robert Malone (56:25.612)
with this vaccine schedule is absolutely valid. Furthermore, and I’ve been trained in this, so I know it to be true, the vaccine industry has created its own kind of ethical logic around the idea that it is unethical to,

Robert Malone (56:49.44)
deploy in a clinical trial a vaccine in comparison to a true placebo. And even if it was an injectable true placebo, that hasn’t a placebo effect.

Ahmad (57:00.147)
That I can’t get my head around. That I can’t get my head around that. It’s just.

Robert Malone (57:05.532)
But if you took the time to listen to the arguments, they’re absolutely self-serving, but they have an intrinsic bioethical logic. It’s a logic which should be challenged and is not challenged, but the logic is that it’s unethical to take children a special protective category.

and administer a test product into them, and administer a full placebo in a control group, when they are at risk of a known infectious disease. And so, what the logic that’s been built, and it’s a Jenga, you know, it’s stack cards, or turtles all the way down,

Ahmad (58:01.843)
But it’s a completely false logic because it is a false logic because things like measles don’t kill you. And you know.

Robert Malone (58:09.972)
Hey, you are a surgeon, right?

Ahmad (58:12.928)
Yeah.

Robert Malone (58:14.78)
You do any trauma surgery?

Ahmad (58:16.728)
Yes.

Robert Malone (58:19.116)
How many trauma surgery protocols are well controlled or supported by well controlled clinical trials? Pretty much zero.

Ahmad (58:26.719)
Yeah.

Robert Malone (58:29.516)
Okay, so I agree with you and agree with the critics that the industry has gone rogue. It is out of control. It is responding to these perverse incentives. And if you want to track it back, the guilty parties are really the governments. Industry, I’m not defending, you know,

Pharma is a nasty piece of work. They will exploit any opportunity to increase their profit and they seem to have very little incentive to protect patients. As is increasingly obvious to many people, it’s in the interest of pharma for us all to be sick, not for us all to be healthy. But given those incentives,

Ahmad (59:22.766)
100%

Robert Malone (59:26.336)
those perverse incentives that exist. If you let the reins off pharma, if you don’t give them a tight box, they’ll exploit every single crack and wrinkle that they can find. That is their ethic. It is, you know, we say haters are gonna hate, pharma is gonna pharma. And they are gonna do whatever they can to make a profit. And if ethics…

Ahmad (59:47.629)
Oh yeah.

Ahmad (59:53.039)
Or Pharma’s gonna Harma.

Robert Malone (59:55.984)
or yeah, they will act as they do based on their incentives. And the real problem here is the tension that should exist between the pharmaceutical industry and the regulatory authorities has completely broken down. Regulatory authorities have been compromised.

Ahmad (01:00:18.989)
Yeah. Have you heard of the book, Dissolving Illusions?

Robert Malone (01:00:26.582)
No.

Ahmad (01:00:27.566)
It’s written by Roman Bristiniac. It’s always mentioned on Joe Rogan’s podcast, every other podcast he talks about it. I had Roman on my podcast and he went and looked at all the original documents from, there was Yale Medical School, all the tables and grass, and he showed that all of these infectious diseases were all way down, back down to normal levels, current levels before even the vaccines came about. And the greatest advances was clean water, sanitation and good food.

And this, um, and this idea that vaccines. Yeah. So listen, I’m going to, I’m going to look, I’m a straight talking Glaswegian, I’m coming to this with, with this conversation with a, you know, devil’s advocate and I’m in some respects, I’m really trying to help you because I’ll tell you why. There’s a lot of people who don’t trust you and I’m going to tell you exactly the accusations that give you, I’m going to tell you to your face, you deserve that.

Robert Malone (01:00:57.304)
Absolutely. There’s no question about that. Many people have done that analysis. Yeah, that’s, that is, that’s true.

Ahmad (01:01:24.482)
and you’ll understand why I’m asking these questions. And if I give you an easy time, and I think you’ll realize I’ve not been giving you an easy time. If I give you an easy time, they’ll be like, ah, see.

Robert Malone (01:01:33.681)
Just stop yapping around and just fire it.

Ahmad (01:01:37.526)
But listen, if I give you an easy time to be like, ah, see, he didn’t even push him hard on anything. I’m making it as hard as possible. So listen, the accusations are that you’re a farmer’s show, that you’re a CIA plan agent, you’re controlled opposition, you’re promoting the idea of pandemics. Wait, wait, just listen. Let me finish. That you’re promoting the ideas of pandemics.

Robert Malone (01:01:43.029)
Let’s just go.

Robert Malone (01:01:47.148)
Just go.

Robert Malone (01:01:57.558)
And what are the bases documenting any of that?

Ahmad (01:02:06.346)
which promotes the WHO and IHR agenda and the pharmaceutical government’s ability to keep us locking us down and jabbing us away. What?

Robert Malone (01:02:15.032)
And you know what, you know what that is? That is propaganda designed to delegitimize me. That is bad jacketing. All that stuff is crap. I know, I know we can go on and on. I read them, I read the attacks all the time. Okay, so am I a CIA agent? No, I’m not a CIA, let’s go, let’s go, come on. Let’s go one by one, start with the first one.

Ahmad (01:02:22.826)
Okay, okay. I haven’t stopped. I haven’t finished. I haven’t finished. I haven’t finished. That you… That you’re still… That you’re…

Ahmad (01:02:42.438)
Okay. So like I said, that you are a farmer show that you work for the CIA and the government, right? Okay. Yeah.

Robert Malone (01:02:48.712)
Okay, stop. Stop, stop, no, stop, pharma shill. Okay, what is pharma shill? Okay, that means that I’m representing the interests of the pharmaceutical industry. And yet I have written essay after essay after book after podcast criticizing pharma. And in fact, the people that are attacking me most are backed by pharma. Okay, so that’s bullshit. That’s just flat out bullshit.

The only pharma I’ve ever worked for was Solv-Aid Pharmaceuticals, which by the way is defunct now.

Ahmad (01:03:19.554)
Okay.

Ahmad (01:03:28.774)
Okay. And then, and this idea of pandemics, the idea of that you’re, you know, you’re promoting the idea of these pandemics when there’s nothing to worry about.

Robert Malone (01:03:31.252)
Next, next, next accusation.

Robert Malone (01:03:40.608)
I’m not promoting pandemics. I am reporting to people what is going on in the government. I’m not promoting anything. I’m trying to help people to understand what is going on. And I have written and spoken about this nonstop for over three years. People that are bad mouthing that are just full of crap.

Ahmad (01:04:00.782)
Okay, so what did you mean by this recent statement? What did you mean? I know, I know, what did you mean by this recent statement in Parliament here in the UK? There’s an unmet need for a rapid response capability to allow for global capacity to meet the need of infectious diseases and mitigate the risk of emergent pathogens.

Robert Malone (01:04:18.594)
That statement is transparently true.

Robert Malone (01:04:28.908)
There is an unmet need for a rapid response capability because vaccine, so let me tell you a fun fact.

Ahmad (01:04:35.708)
Mm, tell me.

Robert Malone (01:04:37.164)
The US Army is developing vaccines for all known bio-warfare agents that have been deployed through the end of World War II. Plague, tularemia, smallpox, etc. You know, the US Army used smallpox against the Indians.

Robert Malone (01:04:54.804)
by giving them infected blankets. The history of bio warfare is long and deep. So they’re busy trying to build vaccines for all of the known bio warfare agents that were deployed by the Japanese and the Germans and et cetera through the end of World War II. You know when they’re, yeah, well, that’s a complex topic because the Americans, stop, stop. OK.

Ahmad (01:05:13.899)
Americans.

Ahmad (01:05:18.443)
I think the biggest spread is…

Robert Malone (01:05:23.012)
Americans basically imported the German and the Japanese into Usamaran. That was Operation Paperclip. Now, if they succeed, they will have all of those vaccines, and it’s unlikely they will, developed by 2050 is the current calendar.

a full century after they had manifested. That’s the problem with current vaccine development. And there’s no question that it is child’s play now to engineer new viruses. We just learned about another bioengineered pangolin virus in a publication in the last month coming out of China. It’s highly lethal, has a brain symptomatology. There’s no question.

that there are emergent infectious diseases like Ebola, which I brought the Ebola vaccine developed by PHAC Canada forward and got it licensed by Merck and that became the first licensed Ebola vaccine because I was in the thick of dealing with the West African Ebola outbreak. That is a case of an emergent infectious disease that-

was in a bat population and entered an urban population and became embedded in urban Africa. And it’s still persistent. Okay, and Ebola is a nasty piece of work. Okay, so there’s a great example, Ebola. People say, oh, there’s never been a pandemic. Well, they don’t know what they’re talking about. Anybody that knows anything about veterinary infectious disease.

knows the effect and impact of West Nile virus on crows in North America. It pretty much eliminated crows in North America. They’re gradually building back up now. They all died from West Nile. That can happen. Now, if it’s going to take 20 years or 10 years to build a vaccine product and we are finding it extremely difficult to develop therapeutics.

Robert Malone (01:07:46.056)
antivirals because viruses evolve so quickly to escape them as we learn from HIV, then we gotta have something. I mean, come on, get real. This isn’t fantasy land.

Ahmad (01:07:59.022)
So, okay, just pause there and listen to me. So, here at my rationale, if there’s an agent pathogen virus that is so deadly, it’s gonna kill everybody before it can spread. But if it’s so infectious, it will clearly not be deadly. It’ll be able to transmit and spread. The fact that it can transmit and spread, it won’t be deadly. So, you can never have a deadly pandemic.

Robert Malone (01:08:23.152)
And so you’re going to construct the world as either or, which is bullshit. Okay. There’s a whole gradient between those. Things are not just extremes.

Ahmad (01:08:29.645)
Really?

Ahmad (01:08:37.484)
Show me one virus.

Robert Malone (01:08:39.872)
That is total bullshit. It’s not either or.

Ahmad (01:08:42.318)
Okay, where’s the deadly pathogen? Where’s the deadly global pathogen? Because…

Robert Malone (01:08:47.22)
I just gave you an example. I just gave you an example, West Nile virus, Ebola virus, Marburg virus, smallpox. How many times do we need to learn this lesson?

Ahmad (01:08:59.19)
Marburg and Ebola were very localized. They never spread around the world, even outside of their regions.

Robert Malone (01:09:03.52)
No, I’m sorry. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Go talk to some people in West Africa.

Ahmad (01:09:10.718)
Okay. Alrighty. Okay. So, okay.

Robert Malone (01:09:14.1)
Yeah, the history of Ebola, that’s why Ebola was ignored for so long, frankly, is it would pop up, it would burn some little African town, they would go in afterwards, burn the bodies, and no one cared. There was no economic impact until it got embedded in major urban centers in West Africa. And why did that happen?

It happened because of African burial practices having to do with laying in state and having the family come around and touch the cadaver. We finally learned that in the West African outbreak. And when they do that, they get infected because the virus persists on the skin. And the real reason why the West African outbreak got shut down finally was because of educating people about public health and about the need to not have

the bodies managed in that way, and to get them into the ground right away.

Ahmad (01:10:17.63)
Exactly. So that West African one infected about 20… No, no, but…

Robert Malone (01:10:22.048)
But what’s your argument here? You’re just spinning crazy conspiracy crap.

Ahmad (01:10:27.698)
No, no, I’m not. I’m not. I’m not spinning any conspiracy. I’m saying that Ebola thing. It was in 20,000 people were infected, 10,000 died, but it never left like two or three West African countries. It wasn’t a global pandemic. I don’t see how that’s ever.

Robert Malone (01:10:39.22)
Actually, that’s wrong. It actually made it into the United States, particularly into Dallas area. And in fact, there was a situation where Samaritan’s Purse, a lot of this stuff doesn’t make the press, okay? Samaritan’s Purse was so frightened that a lot of those guys broke their contracts, they didn’t quarantine, and they scooted out of the region. Thank God they weren’t infected.

Ahmad (01:11:10.55)
Okay, so the only thing that I worry about that statement to allow for global capacity to meet rapid response, I mean, this falls into what the WHO and the IHR want to do, you know, this global crisis, global solution.

Robert Malone (01:11:22.688)
It doesn’t matter. It is the, so what? I’ve spoken at length about the WHO and the IHR. I wrote an essay about it today and about the web. Okay? So this is another one of these false narratives where people take this little fragment of information, this little fragment of information, and they draw a line between them. It’s bullshit.

Ahmad (01:11:33.025)
Okay?

Ahmad (01:11:36.215)
The cl-

Ahmad (01:11:47.044)
So how would we mitigate against these risks and these emergent pathogens?

Robert Malone (01:11:52.716)
There’s no question that the governments believe that the ability to develop a vaccine product rapidly would be a threat mitigation. And by the way, would also be a mitigation of risk for terrorists or other bad actors to be engineering pathogens. Governments believe that the existence of a technology is sufficient to dissuade bad actors.

Ahmad (01:12:24.086)
Do you believe in this gain of function?

Robert Malone (01:12:25.996)
So if you can’t understand why a vaccine, if the technology was possible, doesn’t that be a vaccine? Could be a monoclonal, could be a whole lot of things. It could be computer-generated drug discovery, another thing that I’ve worked on. OK? There is a need to be able to come up, as we saw in this case, to be able to come up with a countermeasure.

on short notice for either engineered or emergent infectious disease. I don’t see how can you dispute that that’s the case.

Ahmad (01:13:03.758)
So what would that be though? So what would that be then? What would it look like? Would it, would it, I mean the MRNA platform or something else?

Robert Malone (01:13:12.128)
Well, I’ve just given you multiple examples. People have attempted to develop monoclonal antibodies to meet that unmet need. People have attempted to develop high throughput drug screening methods to meet that need. People have attempted to develop various vaccine technologies to meet that need. Those are the three. And people have tried to develop ribosomes, antisense. It goes on and on and on.

Ahmad (01:13:20.993)
Yeah.

Robert Malone (01:13:42.196)
This is an initiative that predates me and it’ll outlive me. You know, humans are, any species, is at risk for emerging infectious disease, especially when it gets dense like we as human beings are increasingly doing.

Ahmad (01:14:04.958)
Okay, so on my Twitter, so if you…

Robert Malone (01:14:06.456)
So I’m confused by this whole argument. It is grossly naive.

Ahmad (01:14:10.121)
Okay.

Ahmad (01:14:14.334)
Okay. So John Boudouin, have you ever heard of him? He’s from Massachusetts. He goes, have you seen his death certificate analysis? He goes, the truth is not in the research. He says the truth is not in research papers, it’s in the morgue. He talks about how a lot of the death certificates were, you know, they weren’t COVID deaths, but just because someone died and had a positive test within 28 days, they were labeled COVID deaths. So the figures were.

Robert Malone (01:14:18.72)
No.

Robert Malone (01:14:38.44)
as I discussed at length on Joe Rogan over two years ago.

Ahmad (01:14:44.414)
Yep, yep, yep.

Robert Malone (01:14:47.104)
and was attacked first-sale.

Ahmad (01:14:52.118)
Do you think the government’s re- authority- do you think-

Robert Malone (01:14:53.336)
Remember, my training is as a pathologist. I’m not a undertaker, I’m a pathologist.

Ahmad (01:14:56.95)
Do you think that-

Ahmad (01:15:01.422)
Okay, ask him, when you’re studying viruses, mRNA, mod RNA, if they can take care to avoid exposure to RNA’s enzyme and if so, why? And do you think the response, the authorities response to COVID-19 was more harmful than the disease?

Robert Malone (01:15:21.24)
Well there’s no question that the excess all-cause mortality in my mind was largely driven by very poor public policy and medical mismanagement. Essentially, a lot of these are iatrogenic deaths. It’s been estimated that there’s been something north of at least 300,000 excess deaths in the United States due to medical mismanagement.

Ahmad (01:15:46.806)
Why’d you take care to avoid exposure to

Robert Malone (01:15:47.064)
And Dennis Rannachord has estimated that we have 17 million excess all-cause mortality attributed to something, you know, some probably a combination of things that has nothing to do with the infection as shown by the inflection and the all-cause mortality rate that starts after the onset of the vaccine deployment. But

Ahmad (01:15:52.46)
Yeah.

Robert Malone (01:16:14.004)
does not start with the onset of the infectious wave. Now, in terms of RNAs, this gentleman, you know, RNA biology is a whole separate world to itself. There are multiple RNAses, physiologic RNA, and this is not physiologic RNA, okay? This is absolutely not natural RNA.

Ahmad (01:16:18.638)
Mmm. Okay. Yeah.

Robert Malone (01:16:41.484)
This is a modified molecule which is not mRNA. It has characteristics like mRNA, but it doesn’t act pharmaceutically like mRNA. It doesn’t have a similar half-life. It is immunosuppressive by intent and design. It has the whole field of cytoyuridine is still extremely immature, not understood.

A lot of it has to do with RNA folding. It’s associated with frame shifting. A lot of other problems. RNA classical messenger RNA is degraded three prime to five prime based on the length of the poly A tail and the poly A binding protein complex. So it’s akin to the RNA molecule having a fuse. The fuse is the poly A tail.

and the proteins that bind it. And that there is an exonuclease, a 3 prime to 5 prime exonuclease, that chews away slowly at that poly A tail. And that poly A tail and its characteristics determine the half-life of a given RNA, largely. And then once that poly A sequence is degraded, then the resulting 3 prime to 5 prime exonuclease activity

extremely quickly and essentially the RNA vanishes in minutes. That’s how it’s degraded. Now there are exonucleases and there’s no question that RNA is highly susceptible to pH shifts. It’s intrinsic in its chemical structure. Another key thing about RNA is it’s also highly dependent on its folding structure.

including its stability. So the question about RNases and RNA half-life and all of that was the focus of my thesis research. It’s extremely complex. It’s still not understood. And the work of Kuriko and Weissman with pseudourity is almost childlike.

Ahmad (01:19:03.558)
Okay, next. You know when you get these mRNA jabs and they code for the spike protein and express this non-self protein, under what circumstances will the immune system not attack and destroy every cell that does the expression? I mean, because is that not really ultimately the problem that you’ve got this non-self protein now that’s being produced and expressed in the body? Isn’t your body just going to attack itself?

Robert Malone (01:19:32.428)
Of course it does.

Fortunately, so there’s complexity within this too.

Cells have a variety of mechanisms to suppress that type of immunologic clearance. And that immunologic clearance occurs through multiple mechanisms, antibody-dependent cytotoxicity, cytotoxic T lymphocytes, et cetera.

CTLs are very responsive to local cytokine and chemokine environments.

The mRNA itself, by its nature, the modifications, the incorporation not of pseudouridine, but a modified kind of super pseudouridine, is intrinsically immunosuppressive. That’s why it’s there. That’s why Kuriko and Weissman put it there. And it’s all through the backbone of the RNA, which is absolutely not natural.

Robert Malone (01:20:31.764)
So this immune clearance is absolutely a fundamental problem, except that back in the day, when I came up with this scheme, this was a short-lived molecule in a very inefficient delivery system.

And there was no way that this system would result in this type of widespread delivery of these products and expression of their payload. So now what we have is the situation where you have a lot of complexity in terms of the cellular immunology, the effects of the pseudo-uridine, the cytokines that are triggered.

Ahmad (01:21:06.338)
So, so you know the Sideruridine…

Robert Malone (01:21:20.464)
in cells that take up these particles, which is really completely a black box, and absolutely the widespread distribution of these products into virtually every organ system in the body, complicated by the both micro and macro coagulopathy.

Ahmad (01:21:40.65)
Yeah, can I just quickly come back to mRNA? So my understanding is mRNA is easily degradable. And with the pseudo-uridine change, it basically made the mRNA not as easily degradable and it lasts longer. Well, I’m talking about the spike protein. I’m talking about what the mRNA produces. Isn’t that, when that’s expressed by the cell, yeah, isn’t that going to…

Robert Malone (01:21:58.688)
Bike is a toxin.

Spike is a toxin, it’s absolutely expressed by the cell, it absolutely gets released from cells, it’s not just displayed on cell surface. So, Ahmed, how much time have you spent learning about cellular immunology?

Ahmad (01:22:16.438)
Not enough. That’s why I ask all these questions too. That’s why I’m asking all you smart people. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Robert Malone (01:22:18.84)
Okay, probably almost none because you’re a surgeon. Okay, it is extremely complex. It’s extremely, it’s not smart. It’s just like I couldn’t do surgery. Okay, I wouldn’t pretend to be a surgeon nor do I pretend to be a cardiologist. Okay, so cellular immunology is extremely, extremely complex. Okay, and it’s still not completely understood. What you’re asking about

Ahmad (01:22:31.126)
That’s why I’m asking all these questions.

Ahmad (01:22:36.478)
I’m not- I’m not- I’m not pretending to be anything.

Robert Malone (01:22:48.588)
has to do with processing of peptides, antigen’s display versus native display of the whole protein, class one and class two recognition, antigen presenting cells, including dendritic cells, which are probably also being transfected. The interaction of all of these with draining lymph nodes.

Robert Malone (01:23:15.457)
Big, complex, hairy, messy business. The pseudo-uridine and we still don’t understand.

Ahmad (01:23:20.322)
So this, and this is what I mean. How the hell could they get this? How could they get this through any kind of study within a year? I find this crazy. Like I’ve looked at the studies, the animal testing.

Robert Malone (01:23:30.528)
because they dropped the norms. They threw away the rule book. That’s how, you’ve got to wrap your head around that.

Ahmad (01:23:36.046)
That sounds pretty, pretty goddamn reckless. Ah, so what happens to the LMP after they’ve been taken up into the cells and released their cargo? Are they then in there? Do they get absorbed, destroyed? What happens to it? Oh, for Frank’s sake.

Robert Malone (01:23:42.122)
I agree.

Robert Malone (01:23:51.816)
Unknown. So a lot of these synthetic lipids are non-degradable. So they will reside within the cellular membrane ad nauseum. But the same is true of polyunsaturated fats that you take in when you eat margarine.

Ahmad (01:24:11.434)
And how-

Robert Malone (01:24:11.861)
You, by the nature of your diet, you are fundamentally changing the structure of your cell membranes.

Ahmad (01:24:18.122)
My, yeah, we are what we eat. Oh, okay, next.

Robert Malone (01:24:22.244)
And many of those are non-metabolizable synthetic lipids, polyunsaturated fats. And in this case, you have a number of non-metabolizable, highly synthetic products that are not well characterized. And what you’re talking about, pharmacot distribution, pharmacokinetics, toxicology, none of that stuff was done.

Ahmad (01:24:45.855)
Yes. Yep.

Robert Malone (01:24:49.856)
which is why I write about it all the time. They threw away the rule book. What they’re gonna do next, they’re already told you what they’re gonna do next. What they’ve said is that we’ve now deployed this into billions of people, and we’ve shown that it’s safe and effective. What does that mean? But this is what they’re doing, and this was anticipated by Margaret Liu’s study section.

Ahmad (01:24:50.142)
I know.

Ahmad (01:24:53.398)
What do you think they’re going to do next? And yeah, what do you think they’re going to, what would you anticipate?

No, no, with regards to transfection technology.

Ahmad (01:25:07.137)
Yeah.

Robert Malone (01:25:19.216)
at WHO in 2020. They told you what their plans were. Their plans were to get, remember this, as Brett Weinstein spoke the other day on Tucker Carlson, this is a multi-trillion dollar annual market.

Get that through your head. What does that mean? That means that the likes of you and I are irrelevant. Pharma will do what it needs to do because it wants that money. It wants that multi-trillion dollar market. And so what they’ve jammed through, the WHO and the WEF is on board and everything else, and big pharma, what they’ve done is they’ve jammed through a system that is neither safe nor effective, but which they believe will give them access.

to a whole new market space of medicines and vaccines.

and it’s a gold rush. That’s what’s going on.

Ahmad (01:26:15.21)
And they look, they’re pretty confident about it, by the way, because they’re making all.

Robert Malone (01:26:21.308)
Absolutely, because this is why I write about psychological warfare and propaganda. Because they are able to jam information through.

Ahmad (01:26:27.49)
Look at this screen, look at this screen. I wanna show you.

Ahmad (01:26:34.71)
Can you see this? 48 products in the pipeline. This is just Moderna. And they’re making a whole ton of, they’re making a lot of things.

Robert Malone (01:26:41.384)
Yeah, that’s Moderna. We wrote about that two years ago and we cataloged the hundreds of clinical trials that are anticipated.

Ahmad (01:26:50.482)
Yeah. They, they, they’re building their factories and they don’t look like they’re going to stop.

Robert Malone (01:26:53.984)
So the position they’re taking is that the core technology has been proven safe. That’s a falsehood, but that’s repeatedly stated and backed up by the corrupt FDA. And now all they need to do is swap in different genetic sequences and they don’t have to retest, they don’t have to ever do the things that they never did.

They don’t ever have to go back and do the pharmacokinetics, phar stability, toxicology, because they say, well, it’s been in billions of people now. What’s your problem?

Ahmad (01:27:19.682)
Wow.

Ahmad (01:27:32.406)
Wow.

Robert Malone (01:27:33.277)
Why do another 100 reps? We’ve already done billions of people.

Ahmad (01:27:35.906)
How’d you… I know, but you know with the transfection technology, do you think they’re gonna go for like inhaled LNPs? Or do you, they’re gonna stick with what they’ve got? Are they, are…

Robert Malone (01:27:45.656)
Of course they do. And I tried to start a company for doing dry powder aerosols for exactly this purpose over 20 years ago. I know all about that kind of tech. Just because somebody says they want to do it doesn’t mean they’re gonna be able to make it a commercial product. Dry powder administration of insulin was supposed to be God’s gift to the world and to diabetics. It failed.

in part because it elicited an autoimmune response, in part because it’s very, very difficult to deploy dry powder aerosols.

I had the first patent on mucosal vaccines, my wife and I, sold patents. And in fact, Pfizer threatened us that they would just break the patent if we didn’t give them a license. Instead, we walked away from it.

Ahmad (01:28:27.426)
Okay.

Ahmad (01:28:42.942)
Wow. Right, listen, I’ve got this Twitter follower and this sounds ridiculous.

Robert Malone (01:28:45.068)
Okay? I know this space. I’ve been, remember, I’ve been doing this for over 30 years.

Ahmad (01:28:50.538)
Alright, this is to make you chuckle. Tell me if this is real or not. Someone is asking me to ask you, why have you recently built an underground bunker? Is this true? You built an underground bunker?

Ahmad (01:29:02.423)
HAHAHAHA

Robert Malone (01:29:02.792)
An underground bunker. Now that’s news to me. I am in the middle, however, of rebuilding an over 100-year-old farm building. I’m currently broadcasting from an old pig barn that was built in 1940. And as soon as we get off this podcast, I was hoping to build a container for my…

Ahmad (01:29:06.752)
Okay.

Ahmad (01:29:13.038)
Ha ha!

Robert Malone (01:29:28.248)
pressure tank for my well because we’re gonna be well below freezing and I’m at risk for having the fittings around my pressure tank freezing. But I can’t get that because we’re busy talking on this podcast.

Ahmad (01:29:38.303)
Oh wow.

Ahmad (01:29:41.878)
You know, as soon as I finish this podcast, you know what I’m gonna do? I’m gonna send a picture of my line, the identical one that you’ve got hanging up next to you.

Robert Malone (01:29:52.012)
Line?

Ahmad (01:29:52.514)
Great, great minds think alike. I’ve got the same line. You’re the golden line on the back. The same line that you’ve got. I’ve got that line. I’ll send you a picture of it. Anyway.

Robert Malone (01:29:55.868)
A lion. Ha. Did you also get yours in Venice? Uh-huh.

Robert Malone (01:30:05.148)
I, it’s a, this is a paper machine mask that we bought in Venice.

Ahmad (01:30:09.87)
Oh, no, the mines isn’t. Mine looks very similar to that, but it was actually came over from the States. Anyway, it’s full tax. It’s called full tax anomaly. Anyway, listen, move on. I’ve got so many questions. A few more 15, 20 minutes. Dr. Ken Ali back. No, no, but.

Robert Malone (01:30:25.024)
Yeah, so no bunker. It would be, I’d love it if I had a bomb shelter. Once upon a time when I was a kid, my parents had a bomb shelter. But no, I live on a farm. I race a loose ton of horses. And everything is paid off, but no bunkers.

Ahmad (01:30:46.362)
Okay, okay. Under what circumstances can mass testing by PCR yield diagnostically meaningful results?

Robert Malone (01:30:58.068)
Ah, PCR. So what, Corey Mullis called this before it ever happened, PCR has fundamental flaws in, or limitations is a better way to put it, as does every diagnostic technology. As a person trained in pathology that taught pathology for a couple of decades in American

I’m very facile with the issues of false positives and a positive predictive value and a negative predictive value, all of which is disease determined. So the thing with all of this is that the utility of a laboratory test is a function of

in terms of its predictive value, is a function of the incidence of the disease. And when you have a low incidence setting, then you often have a very high rate of false positives, depending on where you set the sensitivity for the test. And in this case, obviously, the PCR assay was abused.

the cycle numbers were ramped up so that you ended up with a very high false positive rate. But that benefited the interests of those that wished to basically propagate the fear porn message that this was a highly prevalent and highly lethal pathogen. Early on, it was known that

based on studies in Stanford, that the case fatality rate for infection was about 0.02%. That’s Jay Bhattacharya’s work.

Robert Malone (01:33:09.424)
The PCR assay, I remember in detail in the early situation, no one was allowed to run a PCR assay or a diagnostic assay in the first few months. They all had to be shipped to CDC, who it turns out had a horrible test. That’s a whole nother rat’s nest or rabbit hole about what the hell went on at CDC.

Ahmad (01:33:35.199)
I know.

So can we just agree on one thing? You know with John Iannoudi’s paper, I think he’s from Stanford, and the Princess Diamond data. I mean the only pandemic was one on paper. Would you agree with me? Just say yes, say yes. Ah, dammit.

Robert Malone (01:33:51.274)
I disagree.

Ahmad (01:33:56.353)
Just say yes! It’s just on paper!

Robert Malone (01:33:59.3)
There was an infectious virus that circulated the globe. Do you disagree?

Ahmad (01:34:06.81)
You know what? Even if there was, there was nothing novel about it. You know, it’s been around a long time. People had…

Robert Malone (01:34:11.796)
Oh, come on, that is just bullshit. Nothing novel about it. How about the theory in cleavage site? What you just said is completely at odds with the data, the sequence data.

Ahmad (01:34:15.322)
People didn’t die. The average life expectancy

Ahmad (01:34:26.486)
But you know, and where did that sequence come from? Where?

Robert Malone (01:34:27.2)
This virus did not exist in the human population before 2019.

Ahmad (01:34:32.182)
But then people will say to you, isolate this virus. Show us where this virus was. It was all a computer program. It was all just, and even, not even just that, it was a computer program with bits added on.

Robert Malone (01:34:39.296)
Bullshit. I published a paper in March on the use of Fomotidine, March or April, I think it was, certainly that’s when we first put it out, in which we did multiple tests using live virus, hydrations, animal studies, monkey challenge studies. That’s all bullshit.

Ahmad (01:34:59.687)
So you isolated a live virus?

You isolated the live virus?

Robert Malone (01:35:07.276)
The live virus is available throughout the world. That is just another fantasy.

Ahmad (01:35:18.194)
Okay. You need to send me a copy of that paper or tell me reference which I’ll put on the show notes.

Robert Malone (01:35:23.668)
Yeah, reference. Malone et al. Let’s see, it’s Frontiers in Pharmacology and keyword, famadadine.

Ahmad (01:35:37.986)
Frontiers of pharmacology.

Robert Malone (01:35:44.18)
and I’m the first author.

Ahmad (01:35:45.854)
What year is it?

Robert Malone (01:35:47.48)
2020.

Ahmad (01:35:49.386)
So, you know, when they say you isolate, did you just mix it in a lot of monkey kidney and, you know, make it into a glue?

Robert Malone (01:35:54.644)
I didn’t do it. Wait, wait, whoa, whoa. Okay, there are multiple research laboratories all over the world that got this virus as soon as possible because it was necessary in order for them to get contracts. SAIC has it.

Ahmad (01:35:58.218)
No, no, how do- how is it isolated?

Robert Malone (01:36:13.588)
Emory has it. The CDC has it.

Ahmad (01:36:15.47)
I can’t find it.

Robert Malone (01:36:18.833)
Well, I’m sorry. That’s not my fault.

Ahmad (01:36:23.754)
No, no, but I’m just saying I can’t find it in the paper. I’ll look for it later on. Okay, cool.

Robert Malone (01:36:28.096)
Oh, the paper, the paper is dead easy. Do I need to pull up Google right now and get it for you? Here, I’ll do that. Okay. One moment, one moment.

Ahmad (01:36:32.746)
Yeah, Malone et al, Frontiers of Pharmacology 2020. And then what, sorry? Yeah.

Robert Malone (01:36:48.376)
Do you know how to use PubMed by the way?

Ahmad (01:36:50.56)
Yes.

Robert Malone (01:36:53.012)
Okay, well then that’s the place to start.

Robert Malone (01:36:58.36)
Let me pull up PubMed.

Robert Malone (01:37:17.4)
COVID-19 colon, famodidine histamine mass cells and mechanisms. I’m sorry, that’s the wrong paper. That’s a research square paper. Let’s see.

Ahmad (01:37:50.478)
So in the meantime, tell me how was this virus isolated?

Robert Malone (01:37:52.372)
Here we go, Frontiers in Pharmacology 2021, March 23rd. COVID-19, Fomotidine, Histamine, Mass Cells and Mechanisms. And let’s see. So you can easily find it. It took forever to get it through peer review. Sorry, I got the ear wrong. But March 23rd, 2021, COVID-19.

Ahmad (01:38:14.742)
Got it. I’ve got it. I’ve got it. I’ve got it. I’ve got it. I’ve yeah, I’ve got it now. Is that 2021? Did you say?

Robert Malone (01:38:22.016)
Those are those that list that list of authors includes some of the top laboratories in the world.

Ahmad (01:38:29.098)
This is 2021, yeah?

Robert Malone (01:38:32.28)
Mm-hmm. But it was actually submitted first in 2020.

Ahmad (01:38:33.622)
Yeah, I was looking at 2020, I found it now.

Ahmad (01:38:43.422)
So it was obtained commercially from atom, this plasmid containing the sequence. Where did atom get it from? So.

Is that what you mean by a live virus?

Robert Malone (01:38:57.301)
Come on. This is, no, it’s, it is a, there’s, you’re, I don’t know what you’re trying to nitpick. Okay. You’ll find there’s, there is Chad Roy. Look at Chad Roy’s work.

Ahmad (01:39:03.562)
I’m not, I’m not, I’m not, I’m not. I’m not.

Ahmad (01:39:15.95)
Okay, anyway.

Robert Malone (01:39:16.428)
Chad has the virus himself.

Ahmad (01:39:20.894)
Okay, alright buddy. Okay, let’s move on. Right, this is an-

Robert Malone (01:39:26.257)
There are multiple, multiple laboratories that have this virus.

Ahmad (01:39:29.938)
Okay, Axel. Axel says, my question is, should we expect similar pandemic scams in the future and how can you and I resist them?

Robert Malone (01:39:41.388)
There’s no question that we’re seeing this right now at Davos with the focus on disease X and the WHO. The weaponized monkeypox fear porn was another example.

Robert Malone (01:40:02.444)
The industry and government and various other ancillary players have found that it’s very useful for their commercial interests and agendas to exploit infectious disease. This is what’s driving the international health regulations and the pandemic treaty at the WHO. So are we going to see it again? Absolutely. It worked. It’s going to work again. Because people can.

they lose their mind when they’re subjected to this kind of infectious disease fear point. It’s extremely effective. So there’s no question in my mind that we’re going to see it again and again and again.

Ahmad (01:40:41.215)
Okay.

Ahmad (01:40:46.148)
So how do we resist it?

Robert Malone (01:40:52.104)
It’s part of a bigger problem. And everybody that goes down and just focuses on this often is in danger of losing the forest for focusing on the trees. That’s why I talk about propaganda and fifth generation warfare. This is why I talk about the world economic forum and the WEF trained young leaders that have infiltrated our governments.

Ahmad (01:41:06.691)
Mm.

Robert Malone (01:41:18.7)
This is all part of this whole agenda that Klaus Schwab calls the Great Reset. That’s not a conspiracy theory. As announced by the King of England originally, current King of England, there is a globalist agenda that’s undeniable. And infectious disease is being weaponized to advance a variety of different agendas as we talked about at the beginning.

Ahmad (01:41:27.658)
It’s not, it’s not, I know.

Ahmad (01:41:33.034)
Yeah, I know.

Robert Malone (01:41:49.264)
and what can you do about it?

Ahmad (01:41:49.487)
Have you heard of David Webb? Yeah.

Robert Malone (01:41:53.643)
Uh, no. Sorry.

Ahmad (01:41:55.862)
He’s the guy that wrote, did the documentary and wrote the book, The Great Taking. He’s American. And he talks about all of this confluence.

Robert Malone (01:42:02.788)
Oh yeah, I reposted that. Yeah, but so I looked at that and frankly it needed a good editor.

Ahmad (01:42:11.966)
Yeah, I know, but, um, lawyers have looked into that and, um, everything he said is actually correct. They’re going to take, try and take everything.

Robert Malone (01:42:19.34)
There’s no, I’ve been writing about the WEF for years now and podcasting about it. There’s no hidden nature to this. This isn’t something that somebody just discovered. It’s been out in the open.

Ahmad (01:42:28.479)
Okay.

Kevin Redshaw says have those who were cheerleading for biomedical fascism realize that what they supported was utterly immoral.

Robert Malone (01:42:42.212)
Most of them, so that’s an open-ended question, because who are those people? They’re each individuals. We have a major problem with people that are of the, what they call in psychology, dark triad. These are people who have the characteristics of Machiavellianism, psychopathy, and…

Narcissism. And these, as Ed Doud posted the other day, these people will not back down until they’re in handcuffs. They will continue to lie.

Ahmad (01:43:23.146)
Yeah, 100%. I agree. Right, OK, next.

I want to know if we should trust those like someone else who’s selling the supplements. He had a conflict with him.

Robert Malone (01:43:41.276)
Yeah, so, and I got some pushback recently from my sub stack readers. And of course I got a tax from Vigilant News owned by Foster Colson of this company that you’re referring to, who’s a wealthy son of a multi-billionaire. Who, they just dropped $5 million on Rumble.

So if you have rumble videos, you’ll see their ads pop up on them. The term trust, you should trust nobody. In this world, after all we’ve seen over the last three to four years, why do you even use that term? It’s, you know, there are those that speak, attempt to speak truth from the heart, as Matthias Desmond refers to truth speech.

Ahmad (01:44:29.974)
I, yeah.

Robert Malone (01:44:41.744)
And certainly, I think people who are striving, to be honest with you, merit listening to. Should you trust me? Hell no. You should verify everything. You, unfortunately, in this world now, with the CyWar technology developed to the extent that it is, all information is suspect. And it’s going to get worse.

Ahmad (01:45:06.667)
Dude, I don’t even agree with myself from last week. All right, next. What two or three natural medicines can a person take to help them detox from spike protein, if at all?

Robert Malone (01:45:20.204)
So I don’t give medical advice. I’m a licensed physician. I don’t give medical advice over the internet as opposed to some people. What I can tell you is what I take. I had ongoing chronic problems both from my original post-COVID syndrome and then my post-vaccination syndrome, which were not trivial.

Ahmad (01:45:22.403)
Ahem.

Ahmad (01:45:33.227)
Mm-hmm, that’d be great.

Robert Malone (01:45:50.216)
And I still live with, I still take beta blockers, for example. I still have to control my pulse and my hypertension. I didn’t ever have to before.

Robert Malone (01:46:04.104)
I went through a, I changed my physician and I have a local doc who’s been giving early treatment and follows the work of Merrick and Corey quite closely and others.

and went through a treatment protocol that is derived from the iRecover protocol that is promoted and published by FLCCC, which includes steroids and a number of other things, ivermectin, etc. I personally currently take natokinase. I also take berberine. I take a wide range of supplements.

Robert Malone (01:46:52.63)
I’ve lost weight. I’ve changed my diet. I do intermittent fasting. I used to be a vegetarian and was getting quite fat on that diet. And now I’m a carnivore with a heavy emphasis on…

avoiding any processed foods. My wife, even Jill, produces our own flour. We eat a lot of eggs from our own chickens.

Ahmad (01:47:19.49)
Fantastic.

Ahmad (01:47:25.782)
You make your own flower. Wow. That’s amazing.

Robert Malone (01:47:33.656)
So those are things that I do. And the treatment protocol that I went through was extremely helpful. I’m not back to where I was four years ago. I used to be able to outwork a 20 year old. I’ve been a farmer and a ranch hand since, long before I was a physician and a surgeon, or sorry, scientist. But…

and continued to be very active. I mean, we were on a horse farm here. I was out two and a half hours this morning feeding because we have a freeze and snow. And so all the horses had to get wet mash. But…

Robert Malone (01:48:19.584)
But my stamina had really suffered. Weight loss and going through the treatment regimen and then taking the supplements and changing my diet have made a big difference.

Ahmad (01:48:32.302)
Okay, I’m glad to hear that. What about shedding? Do you think shedding exists? What’s the risk of shedding?

Robert Malone (01:48:40.172)
So shedding does exist and shedding should have been studied. It’s required to be studied for any new gene therapy product by the FDA. But because they classified this as a vaccine product, they were able to kind of rationalize that they wouldn’t do the shedding studies that they really should have done. I recommend to you a series that has just been published. You can find Pierre Corrie.

and a Midwestern doctor, and Paul Merrick, have done a deep dive into shedding, and I recommend that you read their Substack Essays on that topic.

Ahmad (01:49:22.682)
Okay, Carol says, what can we do to fight back against those people who have done this to us? The ballot box appears captured by the globalists. Where can we make inroads to change things?

Robert Malone (01:49:36.22)
It’s worse than the ballot box being captured. With fifth generation warfare, everything that you think, feel, are exposed to in information other than through these kinds of alternative media channels is carefully controlled. The technology’s advanced to the point where you really, when your government there in the UK has decided to deploy Nudge and 77th Brigade and these other technologies on you,

You’ve really already lost your autonomy. You’ve lost your sovereignty. A ballot box is just a tiny thing. You really no longer have freedom of thought. It’s deeply Orwellian. What can be done? This is the last part of the book that I wrote with Jill. The better future coming. What can you do?

And I don’t mean to be bleak, but these plans and schemes have been in progress now for decades and decades. Really since, you know, at least mid-century, if not earlier, the 20th century. And it’s built into the UN Charter. You should read Agenda 2050.

Robert Malone (01:51:08.052)
So, you know, and listen to what’s going on at Davos today. And the lectures from Klaus Schwab, like we put out this morning on our substack. My opinion is that there are a few, there may be a few little bright lights of hope, Javier Millier being one of them, but he’s gonna be speaking at the WEF. We’ll see what he has to say.

Robert Malone (01:51:37.4)
I think that we are heading into a period where they are to a significant extent going to have their way with us. And you may find that your only refuge is in small communities, which is why we also write about things like homesteading.

Ahmad (01:52:01.77)
I hear the same thing.

Ahmad (01:52:05.902)
Yeah.

Robert Malone (01:52:06.928)
and ways to be healthy. We are probably heading into a world in which you need to build a broader skill set if you don’t already have it. There’s kind of more of a survivalist mentality where you can be self-sufficient. Apparently few people in the UK have read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand.

Ahmad (01:52:28.94)
Yeah.

Robert Malone (01:52:37.532)
but I recommend that you do.

Ahmad (01:52:39.741)
This what sorry?

Robert Malone (01:52:45.794)
and read about Galt’s Gulch. You know, who is John Galt? The origins of our substack name, who is Robert Malone.

Robert Malone (01:52:56.824)
Apparently in the UK you guys aren’t really exposed to this type of thinking. It’s another symptom of your having been carefully controlled. This more independent, autonomous thinking. But that’s, I think, going to be

your choice? Are you going to choose to live as a sovereign individual? Or are you just going to roll over and live in the city of London? There’s some 15-minute city version of that where they tell you when you can go to the bathroom and when you can pedal your bike in order to go buy your allotted grocery. You know, this is…

Ahmad (01:53:42.157)
Yeah.

Robert Malone (01:53:55.3)
And when you’re allowed to go on a short haul flight and drive your electric car, you guys are rolling over there in the UK. You are fully captured, both parties are, just like Canada, you become a weft client state without a shot being fired.

Ahmad (01:54:11.231)
100% we’re rolling over.

Ahmad (01:54:22.594)
I know. Right, I’ve got a lovely, very polite question. Sean Flanagan goes, dear Dr. Malone, what is your view on lockdowns and what did they achieve? Did they work or not? Should lockdowns ever be used again? Thank you, best wishes, Sean. What a polite person. What do you think of that one?

Robert Malone (01:54:39.884)
So lockdowns were known to be counterproductive before this ever happened. And that was standard WHO policy prior to 2019. Lockdowns obviously don’t work in the face of a highly transmissible respiratory virus. Quarantine can be useful in some cases in limited circumstances.

Ahmad (01:54:51.543)
Mmm.

Ahmad (01:54:59.396)
Ahem.

Robert Malone (01:55:07.928)
for some types of infectious disease, but not for a highly infectious respiratory virus. And this was known. Were they counterproductive? Obviously, the studies are in the excess mortality associated with the lockdowns alone is clear and clearly documented, not to mention the economic damage. Remembering that each point in recession equates to a known number of deaths.

Ahmad (01:55:26.232)
Mm.

Robert Malone (01:55:35.616)
The decline in economic activity alone contributed to the excess all-cause mortality.

Ahmad (01:55:44.538)
Yep. So Patricia says, why did Dr. Malone not warn people about the danger of the mRNA vaccine since he invented the technology and must have been fully aware of the risk of reverse transcription?

Robert Malone (01:55:55.997)
Give me a break. Hi, Patricia. How come you didn’t warn me about the toxicity of driving a car? I invented this in 1989. I got out of the field in the 1990s because of the toxicity. You didn’t know me and would never have known of me, except for the fact that I started speaking out in 2020.

Ahmad (01:55:57.91)
I know, this is Patricia. Why didn’t you warn before?

Robert Malone (01:56:24.912)
So the answer is, as soon as it became clear that this was both a bioethical problem as well as a gross distortion of pharmaceutical norms of my industry, I became one of the most strident, outspoken individuals, and I have the scars to prove it.

attack articles from every major mainstream media outlet in the United States and the UK, attacks from the 77th Brigade, attacks from all corners, attempts to delegitimize me, to write me out of history, editing on my Wikipedia page, etc., because I did speak out. So tell me again about how I was supposed to save the world.

Ahmad (01:56:59.042)
Mm.

Robert Malone (01:57:21.952)
when I have been speaking out on hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of podcasts and over a thousand essays over the last four years.

Ahmad (01:57:31.138)
Okay. Obsequious says, ask him about his thoughts on aluminum adjuvants and other vaccines. He has spoken out about the mRNA jabs, but seems to love the other ones, of which some of us have been severely harmed. I would be interested to know if he thinks a mandate is ever in order, because as we know, the science may say there is a deadly contagious disease, which necessitates…

Robert Malone (01:57:50.752)
Bioethically, mandates are not acceptable. I’ve said this from the outset. I was the first one to write an essay about the bioethical travesty that was going on here. One of the fundamental principles of modern bioethics is informed consent. Mandates completely bypass that.

Ahmad (01:57:59.2)
Amazing.

Ahmad (01:58:13.538)
What about aluminum adjuvants? What do you think of aluminum adjuvants?

Robert Malone (01:58:19.144)
So there’s the data on the toxicity of the adjuvants was well covered by Bobby Kennedy in his interview with Joe Rogan. Just go back and listen to that. He got it right. And he’s written about this extensively. And the whole history here is well documented. And.

you know, is this what’s driving a lot of these psychological issues in children, including autism? My sense is that what’s really going on is cerebral edema in the context of an inflammatory response that doesn’t require aluminum.

Robert Malone (01:59:16.216)
triggered by almost anything that is highly pro-inflammatory. But the aluminum formulations are and were toxic. The industry has pulled most of that out now, but there’s still some vaccines that have it. Now, we’re now at five o’clock. We’ve been going at this for four hours, I think.

Ahmad (01:59:33.942)
Robert Malone.

Okay, two minutes, two more minutes. This is, no, two hours, two hours. You’ve been amazing. I love you, you’ve been amazing. Robert Malone did not and still does not discuss the US laws such as the PREP and CARES Act, which enabled the tyrannical baseless policies such as masking, stay at home orders, treatment.

Robert Malone (01:59:53.868)
What a bunch of bullshit. Why don’t you? Yeah, I haven’t discussed what you want next. You want me to pick apart the Federalist Papers? Come on, guys. Get real. OK, I’m not a lawyer. I have written extensively. I’ve written extensively on the emergency health regulations, on the FDA regulations that have been applied here.

Ahmad (02:00:11.021)
I think we’ll cut you some…

Robert Malone (02:00:24.329)
If you want somebody to give you an essay on the PrEP Act, then go talk to a bloody lawyer. I’m a physician scientist.

Ahmad (02:00:33.374)
Okay, listen, we can’t go through 300 questions. The reason why I was getting through them all is I didn’t want to be accused of not asking you the questions, but I simply can’t do 300 questions in one go. You do know I’m now going to be accused of a Malone sympathizer and I’m controlled opposition and everything as well. Anyway, listen, I’ve got two questions.

Robert Malone (02:00:50.024)
Yeah, well, this has been a, this has been a fairly, this is probably the most confrontational podcast I’ve done in, in the last two years.

Ahmad (02:00:58.954)
Well, at least you won’t forget me. Listen, two last questions.

Robert Malone (02:01:01.26)
And, you know, and hey, give me credit. I haven’t told anybody to fuck off yet.

Ahmad (02:01:08.738)
Right, that’s it. Frack, frack off. So basically, listen, you’re on your deathbed. You’ve lived a very long life with all this intermittent fasting and carnivore diet, which I also subscribe to. Well done. I can’t remember, are you the same height as me or am I a little bit taller? There you go, we’re both the same height. Look at that.

Robert Malone (02:01:25.096)
I’m sure you’re taller. I’m only 5’7 and 3 quarters, but I’m taller than Tony Fauci.

Ahmad (02:01:28.502)
Well, there you go. Are those with your heels on or is that with, you know, standing flat? All right, okay. Right, listen. So I was gonna ask, we’re the same height by the way, I might be one eighth of an inch taller. There you go, with my bald head. I mean, are you including your hair? Cause that’s quite a lot of hair. I mean, like when you press on that hair, does it go down an inch or so or not? Like is that an inch carpet of hair?

Robert Malone (02:01:34.644)
No, that’s, that’s fairfee.

Robert Malone (02:01:49.857)
No, I’m not.

Robert Malone (02:01:54.252)
Hey, I’m really you know what? I have now blown the window of opportunity to build the bloody box around my well pump to do this damn podcast. It’s now getting dark outside. Can we get a serious question?

Ahmad (02:02:08.786)
Okay, very quickly, very quickly. Listen, you’ve lived a long healthy life. Before you pass away and meet your maker, you’re surrounded by your family. What advice, health or otherwise, would you give them before you die?

Robert Malone (02:02:27.134)
Hmm. So there’s this song.

Robert Malone (02:02:36.536)
Forget, it’s, I ran into it the other day, it was a 40s hit. It’s called Nature Boy or something like that. And it includes the phrase, most important thing you’ll ever learn is how to love and be loved.

Robert Malone (02:02:57.121)
I think that…

Robert Malone (02:03:02.56)
It’s, you can choose to sell your soul. We’ve talked about a couple of folks in this discussion that have gone down that path, that have compromised themselves for money or fame. And it often happens in a slow incremental way. You make this compromise and that compromise. I mean, you, Ahmed, you decided that you

would not compromise and you lost your career. You lost something that probably represented in terms of post-graduate education, something like 12 to 15 years of training and stupid amount of money to become a practicing surgeon, at least that’s the case here in the United States. So you just spent, in order to maintain your own integrity,

Ahmad (02:03:54.19)
100% same.

Robert Malone (02:04:01.856)
You just spent, what’s it gonna be, 20% of your life, you just kind of threw away in order to maintain your integrity.

Ahmad (02:04:16.174)
25 years, I’m 48. 25 years.

Robert Malone (02:04:19.528)
Yeah, okay, 25 years. So let’s hope you live to 100, so fourth of your life you just threw away. And what you, and I’ve destroyed a 30 year consulting business that I built. But I still own my soul.

Robert Malone (02:04:44.212)
I think that’s a fine bargain. I’m glad of that. I’ll take that any day. I still have my marriage. We’re, this February we celebrate 45 years. You know, both my sons are alive and thriving. One won’t talk to me because he thinks I’ve gone crazy. The other one’s more or less friendly. I

You know, you can, it’s easy to justify compromising your integrity on the altar of expediency. Of, oh, I’ve got to pay my loans, I’ve, you know, this, that, or the other thing. One of the crucial things is to get out of debt. Debt is the pathway to indentured servitude. It is how they control you.

Ahmad (02:05:40.871)
Yep, hell yeah. Yeah.

Robert Malone (02:05:42.312)
There’s no way that I could have been as outspoken as I have if I hadn’t completely cleared off all debt. I own everything on my farm outright. I own the land, I own the buildings, I own my vehicles, I own my farm equipment, I own my chainsaw. There’s no debt. And so I don’t have to worry about debanking. Well, I do because I’ve got money in the bank.

but I also have physical assets that I can barter or trade or use. So I guess live a good life, maintain your integrity, respect human dignity, and embrace community. That’s my three words. I think that’ll be with me to the time when I’m, they burn me up in the ovens and cast my ashes.

I, you know, there’s, there’s.

Robert Malone (02:06:47.572)
What more?

Ahmad (02:06:49.314)
It’s beautiful. No, no, I’m happy with that. That’s very good.

Very good answers, very good. Especially the last one about debt. Definitely, I mean, if I could pay off my mortgage, I’d be so happy. That’s the one thing I’m annoyed about, having my career plugged, that pulled from underneath me. It’s a ball and chain, mate, seriously.

Robert Malone (02:07:08.712)
Yeah, no, it’s a ball and chain.

I lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in the real estate collapse. I was devastated. We were broke. And that was equity that I’d built up over decades of rehabbing old houses and things because I work with my hands and in addition with my mind. But that was all our equity. It was gone. We’ve…

Ahmad (02:07:18.658)
2008.

Ahmad (02:07:38.2)
Mmm.

Mmm.

Robert Malone (02:07:41.58)
We’ve been able to rebuild it, we learned. We don’t take loans. At first they wouldn’t give them to us anyhow. Now they try to throw them at us and we’re like, go away. I don’t want that. I don’t want your money. I don’t want your indebtedness. I’d rather live more simply than to be harnessed. You want to talk about how the globalists get you by the short and curlews. That’s it, it’s debt.

Ahmad (02:07:44.407)
Mmm.

Ahmad (02:08:13.762)
Definitely. All right, listen, I think I’ve given you quite a hard time. I don’t think I’ve ever interviewed anyone else and had a chat with them and given them such a hard time. I never prepped you on any of these questions. I’ve literally read them all out and you’ve been very gracious. You’ve been, I mean, once or twice you got like, that’s bullshit, but I mean, I thought you handled yourself quite well, mate. Seriously, well done. I think if I met you again in person, I’d still give you a hug. Now you know I’m gonna get absolutely

Robert Malone (02:08:43.076)
Okay.

Ahmad (02:08:43.498)
blasted. I’m going to get blasted for this now. I’m like, Oh my God, he said he’s going to hug Robert Malone. Oh, he’s a fucking control agent. Is it not controlled opposition too? But no, I genuinely think, you know, you were giving honest answers.

Robert Malone (02:08:56.548)
The people that say that stuff are the controlled opposition. Okay, let me just say this flat out. The people that are circulating that crap are the enemy. They are seeking to delegitimize me and to divide all of us. Why? Whose agenda does that serve?

Ahmad (02:09:11.746)
Well then listen, can I just say something? You need to, listen buster, I went on your Twitter to check you out and guess what, it said you’re blocked. Can you please unblock me now, please? Thank you. Don’t even know why. I wasn’t! I was not.

Robert Malone (02:09:26.38)
Well, you must have been talking smack.

Robert Malone (02:09:31.784)
One of the things that I’ve went, so I don’t know. I just go through and when I see people posting crazy crap or these kinds of accusations, I just delete them. I just delete, delete. I don’t need hate in my life.

Ahmad (02:09:41.762)
post crazy crap.

Ahmad (02:09:49.251)
No, no, yeah. No, I’m like that as well. But just unblock me, yeah?

Robert Malone (02:09:53.384)
Yeah, so I don’t know what it was that you did or what it was that you posted, but something caused me or Jill to just say, well, that’s bullshit, get rid of that one.

Ahmad (02:09:57.225)
interesting.

I didn’t do anything.

Ahmad (02:10:09.502)
Unblock Doc Amid Malik, please. Yeah, that’s it. I think there’s a few other people who said, why is he attacking all the good people on our side? I don’t know why you’re attacking. I don’t really wanna go into it. Yeah.

Robert Malone (02:10:20.664)
with good people on our side, everybody that I’ve attacked, attacked me first.

Ahmad (02:10:29.778)
Alright everyone, you’re listening to that? That’s Robert Malone’s answer.

Robert Malone (02:10:32.578)
If you consider Jane Ruby, somebody that’s a good person, it was revealed that she is at the root of a $2 billion fine against an opioid manufacturer.

Ahmad (02:10:41.706)
I don’t even know who this person is. I don’t even know who that is.

Robert Malone (02:10:45.748)
I mean, and Yeeden, the other day Yeeden called me a fraud. I don’t know why, because something such as says, I mean, why the hell, what was up with, what bird got onto his saddle? I never did anything to me, to him.

Ahmad (02:11:05.734)
Oh man, this is so messy. I just want everyone to be happy and us to fight the real baddies out there. You know, the sociopaths.

Robert Malone (02:11:11.264)
Yeah, yeah, let’s all get along and sing kubaya. What is going on, my friend, what is going on is a deliberate attempt to infiltrate, disrupt, and damage an incipient movement. And now it’s being bought out by a company that is spending big money.

Ahmad (02:11:15.534)
Please, that’d be nice. Toast some marshmallows. Toast some marshmallows on the campfire. I’m just…

Robert Malone (02:11:42.544)
and hiring anybody he can.

Ahmad (02:11:45.072)
No one’s buying me out. No one even offers. I think it’s because of this baseball cap. See, uncaptured. Ha!

Robert Malone (02:11:49.48)
Oh, Ahmed, I guarantee it. What if I know of a certain physician, this offer was made to me. I’ll give you a bunch of stock and $500,000 a year.

Robert Malone (02:12:06.302)
in order to support my product. Okay. Now you get a mortgage, what are you gonna say?

Ahmad (02:12:15.242)
I’m gonna say no right now.

Robert Malone (02:12:16.58)
Easy to say, easy to say that you won’t do it. I’ve been there. I said, no. Okay. Other people roll over and say, scratch my belly.

Ahmad (02:12:20.142)
I have one.

Ahmad (02:12:29.486)
The problem is when you do that, you lose all your credibility. Cause I’ve realized the reason why I’m relatively successful.

Robert Malone (02:12:34.888)
If that the physician that I’m talking about, if you go back and look at his history, he has been taking money from pharma his entire life. Big money.

Ahmad (02:12:47.882)
Yeah, let’s not go there, but I agree. I agree, Robert. Robert, I agree. The thing is, I think I’m relatively successful because I’m authentic, I’ve never pushed the jabs, I’ve never pushed any of this nonsense. I’m calling it all that, and I’m authentic and honest, and I’m not captured in any way.

Robert Malone (02:12:50.107)
Just another thing.

Robert Malone (02:13:08.669)
And furthermore, if you were controlled opposition, how come you had to pay such a price?

That’s the absurdity of this accusation. If I’m controlled opposition, then why the hell do I have a tax for the New York Times, the Washington Post, Business Insider, Mother Jones, Rolling Stone, Atlantic Monthly? Come on, guys. Get real.

Ahmad (02:13:16.248)
Yeah, right?

Ahmad (02:13:38.45)
So, okay, there’s one person, Mary AF, who says that people who are attacked publicly in high profile, the reason why, if you’re genuine, you never get any publicity. You never get any profile. The silence is the censorship.

Robert Malone (02:13:52.312)
That’s, that’s, I call bullshit on that too.

Ahmad (02:13:56.653)
Mmm.

Robert Malone (02:13:57.728)
Yes, there is absolutely a business model of, and that’s why I said this spiral, okay? There’s absolutely a business model of promoting.

Ahmad (02:14:05.229)
Mm.

Robert Malone (02:14:11.644)
conspiracies, fringe ideas, attacks on people who have large followings in order to get clicks and likes and follows and it can be monetized. Okay? And there are some people that are paid to do that. I could name names. There are other people that have been hired by people to do that and I could name names. Okay? This is a business model. That’s again…

Ahmad (02:14:23.598)
Mmm.

Robert Malone (02:14:40.856)
Fifth generation warfare, Psy War is extremely complex. And the battlefield that we are in right now has all kinds of actors motivated by many, many different things.

Ahmad (02:14:56.782)
All right, let’s leave on a happy note. I mean it, Robert, if you’re ever in town again, I’m just outside London. I’ll come and meet you and give you a hug. Listen, thank you so much. And do me a favor, give him.

Robert Malone (02:15:09.226)
Okay, I’m sure I’ll be in London again, unless Mike Eaton has completely poisoned him. Okay. Well, I always…

Ahmad (02:15:13.602)
Well, you got my number. You got my number. And I have to admit, it was still…

Robert Malone (02:15:22.208)
I was gonna say, go ahead.

Ahmad (02:15:22.218)
I was going to say it was so funny when I, yeah, carry on. I was saying it was so funny when I rang Joe and it was like, hello. And I was like, that’s a very deep voice Joe. She had given use the phone straight away and give her a big hug. I remember sitting down chatting to her for quite a while last year. And she seems like a really good egg. And thanks for arranging this. Anyway, you were saying

Robert Malone (02:15:46.04)
I think so. I think she’s a keeper. Oh, I always I always say hi to Brian Rose and now I have new friends at Ipac Times UK. I don’t know if you saw that interview. I’ve done a few with Brian and London Real and I’m sure I’ll be back in London sometime in the next year. It just seems to happen. And you know hopefully Andrew Bridgen.

Ahmad (02:15:49.378)
Ha ha!

Ahmad (02:15:59.991)
No, I didn’t.

Robert Malone (02:16:15.436)
survives and find some way to prosper. We are having an international COVID summit number five in DC in towards the end of February, February 24th through 27th. And I’m hoping that we have some from the UK visit us there. This concurrent with CPAC in the Gaylord in DC. We’ll have a breakout session.

And then also testimony in the Senate, thanks to Ron Johnson. So that’s an upcoming. And like I say, I’m sure I’ll be back in the UK sometime in the next year. So look forward to seeing.

Ahmad (02:16:59.49)
That’d be amazing. And I cook up a great steak, by the way, on the grill. So yeah, you’re more than welcome out here in the sticks.

Robert Malone (02:17:05.836)
Oh, you’ve got some serious competition on that out here.

Ahmad (02:17:12.023)
Really?

Ahmad (02:17:15.95)
No, I mean, I love my barbecue. Trust me. I get all my meat from a pasture, you know, raised farm. And I just love it. Love it. Yeah. All right. God bless you. Thank you so much. Um, Robert, listen, thank you so much.

Robert Malone (02:17:23.863)
Good, so do we. Yep. Excellent. Well done.

Okay, take care.