Rune Ostgard Talks About Inflation And It’s History

Rune Ostgard is a lawyer and author. He wrote the book Fraudcoin, which is an excellent book exploring the role of inflation on politics and world history.

Inflation it turns out, is largely a political decision that impacts all aspects of society and can bring down mighty empires, yet there is little debate about why inflation occurs and the immense repercussions.

This book is an important contribution toward educating the public that the destructive power of inflation is not an unfortunate act of nature, but the result of reckless policy.

I hope you enjoy the conversation!

Website & Book
Fraudcoin Website
Twitter
Rune Twitter

0:00

Yes, right.

I have Rune

I mean, it’s almost musical.

Saying it like that.

You’re Norwegian.

And in the deepest, darkest, further up north of Scotland, where I come from, people speak with a very Scottish, you know, musical accent.

0:17

Hello.

How are you doing?

Aye my name’s Ahmad Malik and it’s like do, do, do, do, do, do maybe, maybe I’ll come from Norway.

There are a lot of Vikings that went to Scotland, by the way.

I don’t know if you know that or not anyway.

0:33

So you’ve written a book Fraud coin, is that right?

That’s correct.

There it is.

There you go.

It has a subtitle.

As you see, it’s 1000 years with inflation as a policy.

0:50

Can you just speak a little bit closer or louder into the mic because your voice dips, it comes and goes and with your accent I’m missing things.

But anyway, you’re the author of fraud coin and and you know, you talk about 1000 years of, you know, inflation being a policy.

1:11

I’m quite interested in this.

I came about you because my brother-in-law, who is Swedish Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo, he recommended I speak to you.

He really liked your book, by the way, and he thought it was great.

And yeah, I’d love to hear what you want to say about inflation, because all I know is every week things get more expensive.

1:33

And I don’t understand it.

It’s just everything’s more expensive.

And it’s like, what?

What is this inflation business?

Why do we have it?

It seems like things were very stagnant.

Prices were stagnant for centuries, but in the last 150 years things have gone mental and it’s like an exponential curve.

1:50

It’s just ridiculously expensive.

So let’s start off with some basics, like what is inflation my friend?

Yes, let’s start even simpler than that because you know, we have had civilizations for at least 5000 years and basically the 1st 2500 years we didn’t have any inflation policy.

2:15

And the reason why why we didn’t have that was because the the rulers they they didn’t have any monopoly on the creation of money.

So people used the different types of money and they were free basically more or less to to use whatever money that they liked best.

2:36

So the first rulers who introduced this policy where the.

Leaders of the ancient city state of Athens, and they started using the debasement of silver coins as a means to finance the war against the Spartans around.

2:57

I think it was around 450 years before Christ was born.

And they they basically used this as a means of yeah.

Trying to finance the war, but in the end they lost the war.

3:15

But the policy of debasing silver coins it started to spread to other countries and it also was something that the Romans started to make use of in the in the 1st century of the Christ.

So they ve used the debasement of silver coins to finance the, the, basically the.

3:39

Building out of their empire and in the end they they also failed due to the problems that continues debasement of the silver coins cost with their price increases and their revolts and yeah so it basically collapsed for economic reasons and that had to do with the with the inflation.

4:09

So, and you know, later on we have, we started to use paper money and then they monopolized the issuance of paper.

So that made it even easier for the rulers to create money than when they were using only silver and gold coins and other types of metal coins.

4:34

So.

Yeah, it became very profitable for them.

And today we have a system with the electronic money, you know, and now you can just push a button and create more money and that’s basically what leads to price increases, so by debasement the coin.

4:55

Just to sum up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, carry on.

Yeah.

So that.

That.

The the main reason why you have a general general increase in prices is that you have an increase, you have an increase in the supply of money.

5:18

So the the stock or money grows and then then the the prices more or less automatically will will increase as a result of that.

So that’s the main take away from from my book as well that you you have to understand that inflation whether we talk about the inflation of the money supply or the inflation in terms of a general increase in the prices, that’s a policy and.

5:48

And it’s a cause and effect where where you have, where you basically need an increase in the supply of money in, in order to to have an increase in the general price level.

So those two wisdoms or or basically those two facts are the most important ones for for people to understand.

6:14

We don’t learn anything about that in school and the how money is created is also something that those who who study economics or or finance, they learn very little about it as well.

6:29

And especially the the policy of money, money creation and the history of the inflation policy is certainly something that they don’t learn anything about today.

Yeah, well, I can agree with that.

I’ve spoken to lots of bankers and people who work in the city.

6:47

When I asked them about how actually money is made, no one gives me a straight answer.

No one really knows.

They’ve gone for university, studied economics, finance, God knows what else.

And they don’t know the basics of where money comes from.

And it’s funny, you know, you talk about debasement.

7:03

I think that’s really, really good point that this has been going on for thousands of years.

By debasement, basically what you’re saying is instead of a pure silver coin, you’re diluting at the silver so that the fraction of the coin that’s actually silver reduces, you know, gradually over time to the point where there’s hardly any silver.

7:21

You can barely call it silver coin anymore.

And by taking out the silver, you’re able to make more silver coins.

And the more coins there are, the more money there is at there, then obviously prices will go up.

And I’ve kind of understood that.

That’s always made sense to me.

7:37

What I don’t really understand is how on TV they always give you this impression that inflation is a result of some something else.

You know, there’s some, you know, the Russians are doing something.

So the gas prices are going up and energy prices are going up, and that’s the cause of inflation or it’s hesky consumers spending too much and that’s the cause of inflation.

7:58

And the government has to control the inflation, but from the sand of it, it’s the government that’s causing the inflation in the first place.

Yes, that’s correct.

And regarding the the people’s varying explanations, so why we have price inflation, that’s partly because very few people understand what’s going on and also because when the experts in the quote quotation marks discussed this, they they very often focus on the short term fluctuations in the in the prices.

8:34

You know, prices for different goods and services can vary a lot because of many other things other than the level of the money money creation.

So in the short term you have many other things, but in the longer term over a few.

8:56

Just a couple of years it’s it’s mainly in the the the supply of money that decides the price levels.

So now it’s I I think, I think there are a lot of talkers out there who who who who enjoy talking about economics and markets and they they really, they don’t really understand the mechanics of of.

9:24

Of inflation and money, unfortunately, yeah.

So in your book you talk about 1000 years and 1000 years.

It actually ties in Norwegian history of the UK.

I even remembered learning about it in school.

9:40

You know, 1066 was a big day invasion of Normandy.

But a lot of people don’t appreciate that just before that.

And the the king of England, Godwinson Harold Godwinson.

He actually took an army up north to fight King Harold Hardrada or whatever his name was, from Norway.

9:57

He led an army because he said England is mine.

He had some ancestral claim, some birthright claim.

He claimed he wanted to take the UK.

So he shipped out six 7000 people, all these big Viking giants that you are.

And but at the Battle of Stanford Bridge, he was defeated, surprisingly.

10:16

And then this English king marked all the way back down, absolutely exhausted.

And then for another war, if the Duke of Normandy, and on this occasion he wasn’t so successful, he got an arrow in his eye or something like that.

So tell me about that.

How does it all tie in?

Why’d you start off with that story?

Here’s in 2008.

10:36

That’s smack in the middle of the great financial crisis.

I had learned a lot about money and economics, read a lot of books and I tried to understand and I tried to communicate to people why we had this financial crisis and and make people understand that the way that the central bank and the governments tried to solve it was just.

11:08

Operating the the problems by by doing the same that had led to the problem in the first instance.

So I’m I’m very interested in in our history and we have a book which is a collection on the royal sagas.

11:27

The Norwegian royal sagas from Yeah, basically the first who we ever knew about and until 12150 or something like that after Christ and and there we could read a couple of passages about monetary policy and how it all started.

11:49

So it started in 1050 when?

One of one of the do you call it Chifton or a powerful man in my district.

He was killed by King Haddon Hardrado and Hardrado He.

12:07

He set out immediately in the year 1050 to to create set up the mints in Trondheim and then a small city further South Down South in Norway.

And he he he said that everybody had to accept his coins and people would have to to come with their silver to his mints and the the mint would give them back silver coins but with less content, less silver than they had given to the mint.

12:41

So it was basically a sort of a silver tax.

So he reduced the the silvery in the coins from approximately 90% to to about 1/3 to 33% to something like that in less than 16 years.

12:58

He was probably one of the richest men in the country before he started the his inflation policy.

But of course he he he he probably could triple his for his his wealth in in just 16 years.

And The funny thing is that when they when they did that he he increased he he might have increased the money supply by 7% or something like that per year on average in the 16 year period.

13:27

And that’s the the the same speed that that we increased the the money supply in the in the United States and Norway now in the in the modern days, day and age.

So he he did the same thing then with silver coins as we do today with the with the electronic money.

13:46

And of course he had ambitions and he was very fierce type.

He was hated by my countrymen and he he wanted to rule England as well, so unfortunately for him.

14:03

In Godwinson he he had spies and he discovered the invasion from from the Norwegians and they killed him and about four, four to 6000 thousand Norwegian and other soldiers from other places I guess as well in his army.

14:24

So it it was a disaster for for Norway and it also meant that the the Viking age actually ended with that specific battle.

So, so for Norway to go from and at least for from from my people in the region of turn the log, which is the middle part of Norway, it was a it was a big tragedy we we went from being more or less.

14:49

Three, as a people we we didn’t like kings.

We weren’t we didn’t let them rule us until we made that mistake in 1050.

And then within just 16 years we we we sort of went from freedom to catastrophe because losing about 5000 Norwegian young men in one battle, that’s a tragedy.

15:12

You know, we were probably, it was probably. 10% or something like that of the people in the yeah.

Of of young men who lost their lives that that day, so.

Yeah.

15:28

Now it’s, and this isn’t really taught in our schools, the history here, what we learn in schools from a very early age is that the Vikings working period.

15:44

The working age is not something that we should be proud of because we were ruthless and we raped and killed.

And you know, that’s the sort of the, yeah, the typical.

The version you you you learn about and that you also see in in in the movies etcetera.

16:05

But what is less known is that we were also traders.

You know we we did a lot of trade and since we had the monetary freedom here we could basically use whatever types of money we like best.

So we before before 1050.

16:25

So I think we had a great deal of freedom, at least in my part of Norway.

And I don’t think that we were sort of a type of people, people who who who wanted to go out and and wage war with everybody else.

16:44

That’s something I I feel is greatly exaggerated later on.

Yeah, interesting.

Interesting.

That’s that’s a different turn of events I wasn’t expecting to to hear an alternative view of the Vikings not being beer swinging, raping, you know, slashing and killing kind of people.

17:08

It’s interesting, but you’re right.

I mean from my understanding.

I think we did that too, you know, But, but one shouldn’t sort of say that this is something that everybody did or that all parks on Norway were involved in that.

Or that we did that all the time.

17:24

And So what people need to understand is that it’s very beneficial for someone, for for a society to have monetary freedom where you don’t have an inflation policy.

It sort of attracts capital and workers and skilled people and investments to a very high degree.

17:46

That’s also something that we saw later on in the Netherlands, in the golden age of the of the Dutch around 16th to to 17th, 18th century, and also in the United States in the 16th, 70, or at least 17th to 18th and 19th century.

18:06

They had, they enjoyed them on the principle of monetary freedom and they were almost like magnets, you know.

Attracting capital and skilled people and investors and entrepreneurs and it created the wonders for the society.

18:23

So that’s a very important message for me to to convey that okay we have the we have this tragic, very bad policy of inflation.

But it is possible, and history shows us that we have had.

Monetary freedom for the most of the time, while we have had this, had civilizations on on this earth and that is also something that we need to get back to.

18:48

We we need to remember it, understand it and we we need to promote it and that’s that’s where we are heading.

I hope in the future, when you say monetary freedom, what do you actually mean by that?

That people can trade in any money that they want, or that it still has to be official currency issued by the state but not tied to inflation as a policy.

19:15

So, so everybody will be free to use whichever currencies or money that they would like to use, whether it’s American dollar or in which Crona or gold or silver or bitcoins or other cryptocurrencies, stablecoins, etc.

19:31

That’s a monetary freedom and the the, the, the exact opposite is that someone, some ruler and whether it’s a modern state or an or a king, you know, it says that you have to use my money.

I control the money supply via the banks, for instance, the way we do it today, and you have to pay taxes in Norwegian Kiral or British pounds, you know.

19:58

You have to accept British Pounds as payment.

If someone offers that to you, that’s the legal legal tender laws, you know.

So no monetary freedom is used whatever you want as money, and no privileges to any type of money.

20:17

That that has been sort of the governing principle, more or less for, yeah, most of the time that we have had large civilizations throughout the world.

So basically, before money was decentralized, you can use whatever currency you want, whatever mode of money that you wanted to use, when that king Harold Hydrada centralized it.

20:44

And you can have corruption.

You start diluting the value of the money, and it’s the population then that suffers because they’re being cheated out.

And then they have to pay the price for it because the purchasing power of that money is diminished.

Things get more expensive.

You need more of the money to buy the same thing.

21:01

And so anyway, what?

What’s driving all of this?

Why do governments do this?

Why?

Why?

I mean King Harold Hadrada.

Maybe he did it because he wanted to.

Buy an army.

Maybe it’s just greedy.

Rich people always want more money.

21:17

It’s always very easy as well.

For rich people to make money for everyone else, including me, is a bloody nightmare.

It’s not easy at all.

But rich people seem to be, you know, blessed with the opportunity.

Once you have money, it’s a lot easier to make it.

Why do they?

21:32

Why do they want all this money?

What are they doing with it?

Driving the inflation policy?

What’s behind it all?

First of all, it’s the the easiest path for a ruler to to have to generate income.

So I I often used to say that society scales in layers.

21:53

So in the in the, in what I call layer zero, you have the people, the the general public’s belief systems, and also the ruler’s belief systems.

What sort of ideas they have, perception they have about the importance of freedom.

22:09

Or should you be?

Is it natural to be sort of subservient to the state and the rulers?

That’s sort of a general thing with the belief system.

And then you have the monetary system and in the in the layers above those other things with society that builds upon the the monetary system.

22:32

That’s sort of a consequence of the monetary system and the belief system.

It’s a it’s a way of structuring your your your thinking around this and and what what happens is, is that if if king like for instance King Hardrada gets a monopoly and become comes in a position where he can coerce people to use his money he he will he will very quickly build his power.

23:00

You know the first thing that he would will try to do is to to buy more weapons and also hire more soldiers, professional soldiers.

So he builds up a security state.

And then it’s much easier for him to introduce taxes as well.

23:20

So he can introduce new types of taxes and also increase the the traditional taxes because it can coerce the the the people easier with with more more soldiers and more weapons.

So you see that the the taxes and the laws that he also introduces the new regulations etcetera that’s sort of layered upon the monetary system.

23:45

So it’s it’s, it’s it becomes a very sort of foundational part of the state.

And once you once you get in this position and you are able to have A and you have a monopoly in money creation, it’s very difficult to to to just stop stop using it.

24:09

Many, many others will benefit as well.

You know other rich people the ones who get the contracts with the king or or or the parliament, the the the ruler, the the president etcetera.

All those will benefit to a great extent.

24:26

And in the modern economy with the modern form of inflation where it’s the banks that generate the the, the money, we we have to talk a little bit about that as well.

Then it’s it’s all those who who already have a lot of wealth from from before they become even richer, while while the others they struggle because the the the wages, the the earnings, they can’t keep up with the pace of the money money creation.

24:55

Have you ever heard of Ed Griffin?

Creature from Jekyll.

He has written a book about the the creation of the Federal Reserve, hasn’t it?

I haven’t read the book, but I’ve seen some interviews with him.

He seems like a very knowledgeable and respectable man.

25:15

Yeah, I did a podcast with him on Monday.

He’s amazing.

It’s amazing.

And he talks about exactly what you’re talking about, the fractional reserve banking system.

The Fiat banking system, the fact that the money that we have today is just literally whatever the value of the paper that it’s printed on, it’s not backed by anything.

25:38

It’s not backed by silver or gold.

It’s it’s a promise, it’s a, it’s a, you know, you just have to have faith in it.

That actually means something that when you hand over your £10, note that the person you’re handing over to accepts it as having some value, and then you can exchange goods.

25:56

Inherently now it’s not based on anything.

And he talks about how companies, banks make money out of debt.

It’s only when you and I go to the bank and take out a loan, that’s when money is just magic out of nothing.

26:14

And it took me quite a long time for my brain to get round that idea.

I was like, surely this money must be coming from somewhere.

Maybe I’m borrowing the money from some other person or investor or saver.

And I’m paying back that money.

I find the idea of the money is just created the moment I ask for the loan, and then I’m paying back this imaginary money.

26:35

Very frustrating and annoying because it was never there in the 1st place.

So I’m paying for something that, you know, just was magiced up out of the blue with interest, with interest.

And that’s how our money system works.

26:51

And then, yeah, I find that absolutely crazy.

When you found out about that, what were your thoughts?

Well, I think my first reaction was that I was extremely pissed at educational education systems.

27:12

Why didn’t they teach us this in schools?

Because, you know, they educate you so you can go out and work for the money and and then you realize that there are someones who are legal counterfeiters.

They can make money from creating them or borrowing them and the the first ones to get access to the the the new newly created money, they can go out and enjoy all the benefits of of of sort of taking part part in this major cultivating experiment.

27:45

It’s a scheme, you know.

And so I was, I was delusioned, I must admit I found out about this a little bit after I was 30 years old or something like that.

And you know, just like you, you probably spent some 18 years in schools and you universities before you got your degree.

28:03

And the the same with me and the and the to not learn this very basic thing.

This is sort of the what I call the monetary system.

I call it the cornerstone of civilization.

Why don’t I learn anything about that in school?

28:18

And it’s the same with my daughter today.

She’s 18 years old soon, very soon now and and she doesn’t learn anything about this.

I think it’s a big crime against the kids.

So I felt, I felt, you know, I’ve got red hair.

28:37

I’m, I have rebel jeans in my body 1%.

So.

So I I was totally pissed and I didn’t have anything to anyone to talk to to to to talk about these things too.

28:55

So like me and you now we we sort of share common despair or or disbelief about this, but we at least understand it.

But when I started to realize what this was all about some 20 years ago, I didn’t have anybody to talk to about it.

29:14

So it made me sort of very frustrated and in I think it was in 2010 and I still haven’t met anybody who I could talk to about these things and I just put it aside, I didn’t think of it for 10 years before the the pandemic set in in in March 20, 2020.

29:36

So then then it all came back.

I just had to pay attention again to the news and what the governments were doing and etcetera.

Yeah, that led me.

That was also what led me in the end to write the, the fraud coin book.

29:52

Yeah, I had to get it out.

Dude, I feel your pain.

But The thing is, I I rant on about this, I’m just a grumpy old man.

I feel like at school they don’t teach us anywhere near the important things.

30:07

Like what the hell do they teach at school?

So.

I think every child should be taught personal finance.

Where does money come from?

How best to look after it?

The dangers of debt?

The the the the benefit of compound interest and just know where money is coming from and how best to look after and how you should earn it.

30:27

And personal finances, how to set up a business, how to run a business successfully, how to balance the books you know and how to budget properly.

Every child should be taught this.

And then every child should also taught how how to look after their body.

30:42

The most valuable asset you possess is your body.

You know.

How do you look after it?

How do you feed it?

How do you feel it?

How do you service it?

How do you maintain it?

How do you make sure it doesn’t breakdown?

You know that’s important.

That’s basics.

30:57

How should you eat healthy food?

How should you cook?

We don’t get taught any of this.

And it’s the stuff we get taught.

I just wonder what, what is the value of all of this?

It seems like our children, they’re just indoctrinated and taught to be obedient and compliant citizens.

31:15

Anyway, moving back to that money business, OK, and what you learn and how it made you really angry and everything.

Some people might be listening and go, what’s the big deal?

So what the banks make money out of, nothing has to, has to, has to start somewhere.

What’s the big deal?

Why?

Why are you guys all upset about it?

31:35

Okay, it creates an enormous redistribution of wealth which actually crushes the middle class and makes it impossible for the poor to climb the social ladder.

And in in addition you you increase the wealth of the of the Super wealthy.

31:53

So those who already are very wealthy from from before, they can increase their wealth enormously due to this problem.

So you get centralization of wealth and centralization of political power which just increases exponentially over time.

32:13

So of course that’s a major problem for for, for for us.

What I tried to do with the with the fraud coin book was to explain things that are are sort of purported as something which is very complex by the by the experts again whether they talk in the the new studios or they explain it in you know in Opeds or talk about it in interviews in the newspapers etcetera.

32:40

So these things are very easy to understand and it’s also easy to ex explain it once you understand it.

So my, my, my.

I set out to explain this in in a very simple and also engaging manner by by telling stories and and also to to try to to to show to people by describing the current events or for instance the period from yeah, the turn of the Millennium and of the the the past 20-3 years And and show people how it has affected our economy in Europe and in the United States and sort of show people the dynamics that that the money creation sets off.

33:32

So I think I succeeded quite, quite, quite a lot in in doing this.

I made it accessible for everybody and everybody loves it.

So it makes it much easier for people to understand and understand it.

33:49

So we are not dependent anymore.

There are many other great sources as well but now it’s I think it’s easier today in 2023 to to sort of compensate for the lack of teaching over our kids in the schools.

34:05

We we have many people who who who understands this and can can explain this now and and then you have my book if you if you want to have a look at that so.

I I always get nervous.

It’s very important for us to.

Yeah, I said.

34:20

I always get very nervous when experts say that, you know, it’s a difficult concept and it’s difficult and it’s complicated.

When anyone says this to me, I think those shit you know.

34:36

My job as a doctor and a specialist is to explain complicated issues in a simple manner.

And if I know my subject matter very well, that’s not a difficult thing to do, and that’s the right thing to do so that my patient can understand it.

34:53

If I choose not to explain it in a simple, understandable manner, it’s either because I don’t understand it, or I’m deliberately trying to confuse my patient and make myself look smart and intelligent, or to mislead my patient.

35:13

So when I see any other expert, so-called expert, try and do this, you know, business of, oh, it’s complicated or you won’t understand, I call that bullshit.

They’re deliberately hiding, concealing or they actually just don’t know themselves.

35:29

I think it’s normally they’re trying to hide and conceal and use power of knowledge and use the ignorance over, you know, the masses.

So I think you’re right.

I think you know what you’ve done is a really good thing trying to.

Peel back the layer and show that behind the curtain there isn’t anything really confusing about this.

35:49

It’s very simple.

You know, inflation just doesn’t happen by accident.

The banks and the governments are printing money out of nothing.

That increases the monetary supply, and by default prices will go up and your purchasing power will go down.

36:07

Ed Griffin talks about the power of the central bankers and how.

They’re independent of government and they’ve basically bought out the politicians because, you know, again, you talked about the crushing of the middle class.

I feel like that.

I feel like that, you know, the middle class has just been crushed.

36:24

You know, the the, you know, the ability to climb that social ladder is so difficult.

And it’s getting worse every year.

It’s getting worse.

I thought it should have been getting better.

So these bankers, they can buy the politicians.

It’s pocket change for them.

I mean, they’ve got so much money.

36:42

One, my brain goes, what?

What the hell is wrong with you?

Why don’t you just live with this?

You’ve got more money than any human being can ever spend and be content with.

But it’s clearly more than just about money now.

It’s about power.

Control of power and keeping the population at Bay.

What do you think?

37:00

Yes, of course.

I think that when you own so much money or you have so much wealth, you know you have real estate.

You can go on holidays, you can buy all the the clothes in the world, so to speak.

You can, you can have everything then sort of earning another dollar or another pound, it’s it’s not a big thing for you.

37:23

So you search for other things you want to perhaps to increase your power, your influence instead.

That that might might be a funnier or more entertaining endeavor than making more money.

So I think it evolves naturally from from the fact that you have had success with the wealth creation, now you want to amass political power and influences.

37:46

In addition, that’s a sort of human nature and but still there, you know the greed, it’s it’s a very powerful deficiency in in human kind and in the during the pandemic, the two years between the March between March 2020 to March 2022, the the money supply in in the United States increased by approximately 40 percent, 40%.

38:18

It’s an extreme escalation of the Monet creation you know and in that period the 1% wealthiest Americans they increased their wealth by 1/3 so.

38:35

So there is a direct relationship between money creation and the and the concentration of wealth and in the sort of upper echelon society if if that’s a correct expression and so and it’s very easy to understand you know if you if you are a counterfeiter you have an advanced Xerox machine in your in your basement and you you you just pump out British pounds you know and you go out and buy cars and clothes and and and and the holiday trips etcetera.

39:12

You are the main benefactor you know in addition to you being the one who sort of you create additional demand for the for the travel agency for the car dealer etcetera.

So the first recipients, they also of your newly created money, they also benefit from this, from this, but perhaps for instance a pensioner in the, in the up north, in Scotland, out in the rural area areas don’t see anything of of this new newly created money.

39:43

They just see the prices increase.

So this is, this is what we call the Cantilon effect.

The Cantilon effect which has been known for, yeah, 300 years.

So no, at least, yeah, 300 years.

40:01

The first, first recipients of the newly created money that benefit on the on the expense, at the expense of all the rest of society.

It’s so simple.

You know, it’s very, it’s very, very simple.

It needs to be taught to everybody also the politicians and just let me come back to get back to to to your question there or or was it a sort of a statement you said that the experts they don’t tell the truth or they don’t tell the sort how how they don’t give you a correct explanation about how things work.

40:38

I think I know some people who works in, who who work in finance and they have the same total amount of years in schools and universities as us to.

And they were taught when they went to to university, that university that they were going to perform a very important task in society, namely to be those who are efficient allocators of of scarce resources in society, both labour and also capital and real estate.

41:15

To to bring it into the hands of the most efficient producers, those who can supply the society with the with the with the goods and services that the people need.

So they were sort of portrayed to become they were supposed to become very important people in society the the people working in finance whether they were to become investors or financial analysts or or brokers or anything like that.

41:46

There is support to supposed to be sort of the the what they call it the cream of the crop you know in terms of being valuable citizens and for them to sort of realize today that they haven’t been taught anything about this system.

They have just become part of the the way things work and sort of to readjust their own thinking about what their role in society is.

42:14

To to sort of understand that they are some of the first, some of the prime beneficiaries in in the systems.

Those who who who sort of can generate most wealth and and benefit the most from this corrupt system.

42:33

It’s very it’s a very hard mental exercise for them.

I would I would think because these are not greedy people from the from the outset they they have been sort of formed shaped you you know as they went along and became successful brokers or or endless or or or whatever they they became.

42:56

So I think it’s it’s important to to to sort of understand that aspect of it as well and and try to reach out and not shove them into the cold but say but you you need to understand this and you need to communicate to us that you have understood it and and you should stop doing gaslighting of the people whether it’s deliberate or if it’s unintentional, unintentional you have to to communicate a different story to us because we know that you are not telling us how things work you have to to become truthful.

43:39

Really, it’s funny.

The doctors are the same.

We start Med school, we’re told we’re the top 1% of society.

We’ve worked so hard.

We’re so clever.

We have such an important role in society.

And so it’s very difficult for a lot of doctors to accept that, you know, a lot of the stuff they were taught in Med school might not be good.

43:59

A lot of the health interventions that we’re doing are actually really bad for people.

It’s a lot of mental gymnastics for them to square that one, you know?

What do you mean?

These shots aren’t good for you?

Of course they’re good for you.

No, it’s not experimental, you know?

44:16

And you go, no, it’s experimental.

And they’re causing a lot of danger and harm to people, and they’re not safe and they’re not effective.

What do you mean?

That’s impossible?

You know, it’s a hard thing for them to swallow.

It’s just being told that they’re smart, they’re clever, be obedient, you know?

44:35

It’s hard similar.

It’s very similar, similar situation.

So what is the solution to this?

You know, because I don’t see many people getting upset about this.

Runa, Runa.

So basically, you know, I I find the squeeze in middle class very difficult.

44:52

My dad came to this country, to Scotland, when he was just a teenager.

He worked in the shipyards.

He saved money.

He, as a young man, just a teenager working in the shipyards in Scotland, was able to save enough money and send it back home to Pakistan, was able to save enough money here to buy a business, to start working for himself.

45:15

He was, you know, uneducated, hadn’t been to university.

He was earning enough to do all this, and he he bought a shop, a shoe shop, then a business.

He worked hard.

You know, it’s mainly him working mom used to work sometimes in the weekends, but it’s mainly him 11, main breadwinner and you know, suddenly he pulled himself up from the bootstraps from, you know, very poor deprived area to very affluent area, then opened a nursing home, et cetera, et cetera.

45:43

You know, as you know, older teenagers we started having a very good quality of life.

But he he jumped several social ladders in the process, you know?

And when I look at things now, though, I don’t see how you could do that.

It’s hard enough.

45:58

As for someone like me who’s a professional, you know, both couples need to work.

Kids can’t.

We can’t afford private schooling, you know, there’s no fancy holidays.

We drive second hand cars.

Recently I’ve had a problem at work where I’m not allowed to work anymore because of podcasts where I’m shining.

46:16

The truth like this has got me into trouble.

So yeah, I need to.

I’m stressing a little bit about that.

You know, it’s hard.

The squeeze is there, definitely.

And I feel like everyone is being pushed down and there’s a super, not even 1%, like a .001% developing where they have all the wealth, everything’s concentrated there and everyone else is being pushed right down.

46:43

Is it a similar thing in Norway?

Because I used to think the scandy countries were all kind of like, you know, egalitarian.

Everybody’s doing well.

Everybody’s wealthy and comfortable.

What is it like over there in Norway?

Okay.

I think that the the tax levels are very, you know, they are very we pay a lot of taxes and the people are very indebted here.

47:06

So we have the the highest debt per household measured against the the household incomes in the whole in the whole world.

So we are in circle, yeah.

And most, most people take out loans here without what you call it a fixed interest rate contract.

47:29

So it’s a variable interest rate.

So many people are hurt now when you have had this rate increases.

So it’s it’s quite worrisome actually the situation here.

And so I I expect that it will will be a yeah, a greatest economic squeeze for most people now much greater than we have seen for perhaps yeah generations, several generations.

48:02

So it’s it’s quite worrisome what I think if if I, if you just would like with with let me go a couple of steps back because we were talking about the mental exercises.

48:20

You know it’s hard for for for for those who are experts to sort of change their way of thinking.

And then you started to talk about how that it was a little bit better or much, much better for for our parents or your parents when you grew up.

48:43

So that’s basically just some a couple of decades ago, you know, it was much better than it is today.

So it has changed drastically just in 20-30 years.

What I always focus on and this is my sort of I think it’s my rebel mindset that I always I’m always looking for solutions and trying to identify what what are sort of the key steps you need to take in order to get out of this.

49:18

And you have to be smart and first of all you have to embrace new information.

You have to embrace being getting sort of this new knowledge that this is the way the the the monetary system work works and and this and and and the monetary system is the foundation for the rest of society.

49:45

And also that this is something which has developed as a result of our belief systems.

So, and this is not something static, it has varied over time.

We had monetary freedom in the most part of the civilization history and all.

50:05

You have to look for those positive pieces of information out there.

I think.

I think one one has to respect that it’s difficult to to to to learn new things.

50:22

I I often used the example with the with the people who saw an airplane coming roaring out of the of the skies for the first time.

People had never seen an airplane and perhaps people didn’t know anything about that.

The man could fly in the sky, you know it must.

50:41

It must have been a tremendous shock for them, but they got they they got by it it it didn’t take very long and then they sort of accepted that this is reality.

A man can fly in a machine, in a metal guard in the sky.

That’s very that’s possible.

50:58

And so I think that it it won’t take very long, a long, long time before from from the point when when people hear about the monetary system and until they accept that this is reality.

51:14

And then the next question is how can I do something with this?

And I’ve come to the conclusion that you need to decouple from the existing system and the way to do this is to stop taking on more loans.

51:33

You have to try to decouple from the debt based monetary system and and try to appreciate what we call sound money, which is gold has been the prime example of sound money throughout history because gold has a very, very low inflation rate.

51:53

It’s only a couple of percent maximum per year with the more gold being mined every year.

So that’s that’s very important to and and and try to understand why did people use gold, why did people use silver?

52:10

Why did we appreciate this and and start using it when we give gifts to to, to, to our children and to friends?

Again, use silver and and gold as gifts, whether it’s in the form of jewelry or its coins, for instance.

52:29

And and also try to learn about Bitcoin because I think Bitcoin is the is is the future of sound money.

And I think our kids are going to embrace Bitcoin.

They don’t know anything about physical money.

52:44

You know, like the bills that we were used to to the paper bills we were used to use and and the coins, et cetera.

That’s very hard for them to understand.

I think so.

They will probably embrace Bitcoin and understand Bitcoin much, much easier than it is for our generation.

53:03

So what I used to say is that you don’t have any any stronger social force than the network effect that you create when you share sound money and knowledge about sound money with people that you love, that’s a tremendous social force.

53:28

So if you start to do that with the people you love, it will spread throughout society organically.

So it’s it’s not, it’s not any more complicated than that.

It has to be a grassroots movement.

53:44

We have to share the knowledge, we have to share the sound money, we have to decouple ourselves from the existing monetary system.

But Runa, I get what you’re saying and you know we don’t have any loans apart from our mortgage.

54:05

The reason why I drive a 2015 car is I don’t want to get a new car.

I’d rather just take my car to the garage and get it fixed.

It drives.

It’s not sexy.

It’s quite an ugly car, but.

You know, I see all these people driving big, fancy 4×4 cars and, you know, brand new, but I know that it’s all in debt that paid it off.

54:31

I don’t want the nest of debt around my neck, and especially now that I know how it’s made and how it just profits other people and it’s shackles.

You change you down.

But I still have to live in this world.

The game is rigged.

54:47

I still have a stupid mortgage.

My kids will grow up and they go to university and they have to take out loans.

They’re trying to save money so that they don’t pay loans.

I don’t know how that’s going to work because I’m not earning anymore.

So, you know, it might be that they have to pay for these student loans and and and student they have to pay for their fees, you know, which are massive.

55:11

So how do people decouple when it’s so hard, when they can barely earn enough money to put food on their table?

How do you decouple from the system?

I think, I think the the recession that hits us now will teach us to to spend less money on things that are no good for on goods and services that aren’t good for us as people, as humans, you know?

55:40

So that’s perhaps a good exercise, and it also will teach us how dangerous it is to accumulate a lot of personal debt.

Let’s say that it’s difficult for us, you and me as as parents, to do do things with our situation.

56:03

I think if people decide that it’s too difficult for me to do anything about this okay, that’s their case.

It’s their problem for first of all.

But it is possible to to communicate this to your children and the way I do it is to to to sell to to tell my daughter 17 year old daughter that you own the future.

56:27

It’s not like the the youth is our future.

You are my generation sort of depend depends on the youth that the youth is is our future.

It’s not like that.

It’s you my dear daughter.

56:43

You own your own future and you shouldn’t take on loans.

You should try to understand the way the monetary system works.

You should try to understand how sound money works.

And you you should try to to learn how to earn and verify and invest sound money wisely.

57:08

And also you, you should not try to carry out our burden when we have so much debt in our society.

It’s my generation’s responsibility.

It’s not yours burden to carry further on.

57:27

So I I I tell her you should seek out the most the freest part of the world.

Find out where that is.

Learn the language that they speak there and and and and and find out how to to earn sound money instead of using this corrupt money that we make use of today.

57:47

You take responsibility for your freedom and we we clean up the mess that we have created here.

It’s our problem.

We have to we have to solve it.

It’s not your problem.

Go out, be free and and and learn to live a good life.

58:03

That’s my message to her.

To her.

That’s a great message.

I’m going to copy it for my own children, but is there anywhere in this world that is free?

Yeah, it’s at least some parts of the world which are more free than others and definitely many parts of the world which are freer than we experience today in Britain and in Scandinavia.

58:34

So I think, I think that’s sort of should be some part of the adventure that they travel different places and learn to understand what what is most important for me in terms of different types of freedom, what what’s what’s more important?

58:52

Is it to be in a country where I can freely use gold or or Bitcoin and silver and or is it is it a part of the world where they have a great deal of freedom of speech.

What’s more important to you and travel where you where you to those places where you find other likeminded young people and learn to to get to know other other young people.

59:19

People who who who share the same values as you and and live a happy life with them.

OK, and then perhaps you.

If we clean clean up our mess, you can come back and visit us sometime in the future.

59:37

So people today, people today of our generation, not our children, what can they do to secure their finances and protect themselves?

Learn how to earn and secure savings in in in the form of Bitcoin.

1:00:00

That’s probably one of the most important tasks that they should embark upon.

And don’t take on any debt at all, don’t borrow money.

And I also I find it quite fascinating to see how scared the people in my generation is by the development of artificial intelligence.

1:00:27

I mean, how quickly people can now learn so many skills that took us years to develop, you know, in university and also working as lawyers, doctors, et cetera.

1:00:43

Try to make use of intelligent use of artificial intelligence and respect the technology, but learn it and just leapfrog the older generations do it.

1:00:59

Don’t be scared of it, but to make, yeah, make smart use of it.

So I think, I think it’s possible for for, for the for the youth today to sort of build a bridge to to a more prosperous and prosperous future with a lot more freedom for for, for, for for themselves, definitely.

1:01:23

I’m quite optimistic on their behalf actually.

Great.

I love optimism.

The thing is, I think, I think the listeners, I hope they’ve realized that money and how it’s created and inflation and debt are all linked and in return these have an impact on your freedom.

1:01:53

That in turn impacts your health.

So for example, I think the more indebted you are as an individual, the less free you are.

Slaves aren’t known for their opinions.

1:02:11

Slaves are known to quietly, obediently stand in a corner until the master says come over here, get me a glass of water or something.

So slaves.

Are meant to be invisible and quiet.

Then they’re the ultimate in being indebted.

1:02:29

They’re indentured.

So you don’t want to be indebted.

When you’re indebted, you’re not free to speak up.

You’re not free to challenge.

It’s difficult to be a dissident.

You have to toll the line.

You are not free when you are indebted.

1:02:44

You’re too busy worrying, how am I going to pay my debts off?

How am I going to air my money?

I’ll rather stay quiet.

Even if I see something wrong or criminal, I’ll stay quiet and look the other way because I’m fearful of how I’m going to pay off my debts and that’s more important.

1:03:01

So being indebted is not good.

It’s the opposite of freedom.

Now if you’re not free, you can’t be healthy, and when you’re financially indebted and stressed, that impacts your health.

People in financial difficulties have.

1:03:19

Health difficulties.

Stress is a physical killer.

Stress causes heart disease.

It causes cancers.

Awful stress is a killer.

And the reality is there’s very few people who are in significant debt and not stressed.

1:03:36

Actually, the people who are the most in debt, who are billionaires and have billions in debt, they don’t care.

It’s not their stress, it’s the bank stress.

But when you have a little bit in debt, a few £1000 or 10s of 1000 pounds, yeah, of course you’re in stressed because you know the bank’s going to come and take all the everything you possess from you.

1:03:54

So being indebted is not good for your health and being in financial trouble is definitely not good for your health.

I thought I’d just mention that because it ties into Doc Malik, Honest Health, Runa.

Then listen, say you live.

Oh, I forgot to ask you, what do you do by the way?

1:04:12

What’s your profession?

Well, I’ve been a lawyer for since 2006, so I own a small law firm together with a partner.

Yeah, so.

1:04:29

You’re part, you’re part of the establishment, you’re a lawyer, you know, how does the reception been to, how’s the reception been to you writing this book?

And challenging the power, the status quo, power structure, Have you had any problems?

1:04:46

Have you had any censoring or anything?

No, not at all.

Definitely not.

Everybody loves the book.

People from all walks of life whether they work with banks or they are in they’re economic students or they’re plumbers or Eight corners and Goldbergs and the ordinary people and the young kids and the so I get so much love.

1:05:15

It’s quite fascinating actually to see and and also I’m quite active on Twitter or access it’s called now and I always, I often say that people from all political affiliations they can talk to me and then I’m open minded and I will try to understand what people’s ideas about this are.

1:05:45

And I try to communicate and and talk to have a conversation with everybody and as long as people respect me as a as a rebel and sort of an activist, then I can talk to everybody.

1:06:04

I I think the the main challenge for me is that I I’ve fallen, fallen in love with writing books.

So I I spend a lot of time writing books which I otherwise could could have spent on, yeah, handling cases, going to the courts all the time and making a lot of money.

1:06:25

So at the moment, I would perhaps give a higher probability to being a rebel and an author than than what I should.

But I mean you, you just have to follow your heart.

That’s what I’m able to do now.

Good for you.

1:06:41

Well, you’re probably the third lawyer that I really like now, so I really like someone here called Steven Jackson.

He’s a great guy.

I really like someone called Jonathan Angler.

You’re the third lawyer, Runa, that I like.

I never thought I’d like any lawyers.

I thought you’re all scum, but there are some good ones of year round, Surprisingly.

1:07:01

There you go.

So listen, my friend, if you’re on the deathbed and you’ve reached, you know, 156, you’ve lived a very long life, very healthy, you still got that great hair of yours, and you’re about to meet your maker and you’re surrounded by your family, your great grandchildren, etcetera.

1:07:19

What words of wisdom and advice would you give them?

Well, first of all, you have to search for the for the truth.

Because without the truth you won’t be happy.

You will.

You will never be free.

1:07:35

So that’s the most important thing.

Perhaps you will never find perfect truth, but you you have to try to identify where it is and live truthfully.

1:07:52

And that’s the most most important thing.

And be curious, yeah.

Great.

That’s I think the most important message.

And also I would like to add that sort of being human, it’s essential to try to identify what what a human being is.

1:08:19

And I have a very positive idea of what humankind is.

Many people think of people as a destructive force that we destroy the this earth with the pollution and everything we do in our everyday lives.

1:08:45

That life and my my take is the exact opposite.

If we are free then we are forced for good and we will enjoy a lot of happiness together and we are social, social species.

1:09:08

So yeah, search truth and try to be free and spend a lot of time with with people who are like minded.

And that’s the most important message I I can get across to to the young people I guess.

Amazing.

I like that.

1:09:25

I’m like you, too.

I I know there’s a lot of people who think the problem with humanity is humanity.

It’s too many of us.

We were destroying the planet.

There’s not enough resources, it’s all scarce.

We need to be sustainable.

Call a few billion humans and I think that’s a little rubbish.

1:09:43

I think humanity is for the most part quite wonderful.

Yeah, we are flawed, but it’s a very small percentage of our psychopaths and sociopaths.

I think once we understand how we can have a, you know, a psychopath sociopath mitigation system.

1:10:02

Then humanity will be in a much better place as soon as we can figure out how to deal with these crazy nut jobs, these horrible, horrible people.

You know that I can’t for just a tiny percentage, the rest of us can just get on with our lives and you know, undisturbed.

But we we haven’t figured that out.

1:10:18

We just need to figure out a I needs to start out these sociopaths.

We need to be able to start deal with these people and then the rest of it will be fine.

The earth is abundant.

We are.

We are good.

And yeah, it’s that I don’t have a problem with that.

1:10:35

I think humanity is beautiful.

I definitely love humanity.

I’m on.

I’m definitely team.

I’m on Team Humanity side, right?

Definitely.

Runa, is there anything else you want to talk about?

I think we have covered many interesting things.

1:10:56

Now I’m really appreciated talking to you and get to know you a little bit.

Yeah, it’s been great.

So thank you very much for inviting me.

Pleasure.

I really enjoyed it.

Really Seriously.

And we talked about a lot of different things.

1:11:11

I think actually what’s surprising is how aligned we are.

Didn’t expect that.

We’ve got a lot in common apart from the hair.

So yeah, so listen, thank you so much.

Doing really good chatting to you everyone listening.

I will put up Bruna’s links and do check out his book and follow him on X.

1:11:31

And thank you so much for listening everyone.

Remember to subscribe to my sub stack.

Support me.

I need all the help I can get folks.