Part 1 – The Israel-Palestine Crisis From A Zionist Perspective

Norman Fenton is a dear friend, fellow freedom thinker and fighter that I got to know during the COVID era.

Norman is a British Jew with very close family ties to Israel. Recently Norman wrote a blog about his concerns that “the 7 Oct Hamas attacks exposes more extensive antisemitism in the Freedom movement”. Link – here

I thought I would give Norman a self-confessed Zionist the opportunity to present his thoughts on the situation currently in Israel and Palestine.

I enjoyed talking to Norman who I respect greatly and I hope you enjoyed it too.

Norman Fenton (00:01.867)
What’s wrong, Al?

Ahmad (00:02.312)
Right, Norman, I was saying you look very smart and I’m actually a bit disappointed because I thought I gave you the inspiration for your haircut, but you’re growing your hair again. Ha ha.

Norman Fenton (00:11.742)
And grow my hair again. Yeah. So the thing about dressing smart is I was watching myself on a couple of recent sort of podcasts I’d done. I’d gone to sort of strictly, I’d gone to a very sort of casual look. And then I watched one where I had a sort of a suit and a sort of jacket and tie on. I just thought I looked better with the jacket and tie. So you’re getting the privilege of having me with a jacket and tie today. Oh, man. Yeah.

Ahmad (00:36.032)
I’m honored, I’m honored. I mean, I know like Lex Friedman does everything in his black and white, black suit, white shirt and black tie. I mean, I’ve worn a suit a few times and people have said, oh wow, you look very smart. But the truth is I like just, I like being casual. I like being, you know, in a hoodie and jeans. This is the way I roll.

Norman Fenton (00:37.602)

Norman Fenton (00:57.63)
Yeah. But just one thing that I didn’t realise that then my wife is actually supposed to get in a call from the hospital 1130, which I might have to take it be very it will be very brief, but we might just have to break for a few minutes then. Yeah.

Ahmad (01:14.336)
Mate, we can pause. We can pause and start again. Anyway, I’m reaching out to you because I’ve already had you on as a guest and you came on and graced my show very early on for which I’m grateful. We had a terrific conversation. And yeah, unfortunately, you know, in the last few weeks, things have turned sour in the Middle East. And the biggest, one of the biggest…

things that makes me sad about the turn of events is how so many of us who have been in the so-called freedom movement are now really pitted against each other and that makes me sad. That makes me sad. And I don’t know, I wanna see us all come together again because I think this is all part of the deliberate ploy of dividing humanity and having us at each other’s throats. But I’ve had a few guests on who

I’ve talked about the plight of the Palestinians. You know what, you’ve been quite vocal, I would say, in the defense of Israel, and you’re totally entitled to that. And I think I would like to hear what you have to say and give you the opportunity to say what you have to say on the matter. So yeah, where do you wanna kick off?

Norman Fenton (02:33.186)
Well, probably to say that I, unlike a lot of the people commentating on the situation in Israel, Gaza, I actually have some skin in the game here, because obviously I’m Jewish, and like the vast majority of Jews, I’m a Zionist Jew, that’s something that I want to pick up on, because I was watching your interview with that Nitori Kata rabbi, Weiss, and there’s a few things about that I want to sort of pick up on.

may be correct. So like most Jews, I’m Zionist, which simply means that I believe that the Jews have a right to live in their indigenous homeland, the state of Israel. And not only that, my grandfather was born in Palestine in 1891, which of course wasn’t a national entity then. It was simply part of the…

Ahmad (03:04.152)
Roll for it.

Norman Fenton (03:31.498)
Ottoman, the Turkish Ottoman Empire. And indeed, up until, up until he became a British citizen, incidentally, in 1949, his nationality was registered as Turkish. That’s what he was. He was a Turkish citizen. And the, and the reason that they he was actually his family was forced to leave Palestine was because of Arab riots, which took place in the early 1920s. So the idea that

that the Jews and Muslims lived in harmony in Palestine before the state of Israel was created in 1948, is a myth, you know, which is blown about by my own family history. So there’s that, but also my wife’s, almost all of my wife’s family, including the two sisters and all her cousins, et cetera, they all live in Israel. My brother lives in Israel. And up until…

very recently when my wife was, as you know, got a dementia and a situation which was massively exacerbated by the taking two doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine, I would be going to Israel. We have a small apartment now. I’d be going there every few weeks. So that kind of stopped now. But had that not happened, I would certainly have been in Israel on the day of the 7th October massacre, the Hamas massacre.

And that affected not just me, but all Jewish people to a level which I don’t think anybody outside of the Jewish community seems to really understand the scale of the attack. You know, it was the worst in terms of sort of per capita. When you look at the number of people given the size of the population, it was by far and away the deadliest terrorist attack probably in history. And…

the brutality, the sheer brutality of the attack, which many now, many Jews, we’ve seen the evidence, I’ve seen the videos, my own niece, that’s my brother’s daughter, was there at the scene after the destruction of one of the kibbutz in, this was kibbutz Biari. She actually had to pick up pieces of bodies with, because they didn’t even have enough medical staff, there were so many people, so many medical staff out there who were injured that the…

Ahmad (05:50.616)

Norman Fenton (05:54.774)
she is a conscripted soldier, she’s just a young kid, had that responsibility and she’s completely traumatized. What she saw was incredible, it’s far worse, she says, than anything that you hear about the atrocities. There are some videos and photos, but actually being there in the aftermath of it is something that is quite incredible. So this event has traumatized the Jewish people, not just in Israel, but…

more or less everywhere in the world, to an extent that is on a, in a sense, it’s on a par with the Holocaust, because we thought that after the, you know, the destruction of the Jewish people by the Nazi Holocaust, that this wouldn’t, you know, it’s supposed to be never again. But here we had a situation where Jews in their home, in their homes, you know, on one of the holiest days of the year, incidentally, on not just the Sabbath, but on the, you know, on the

the festival of Simcat Tor, a very holy day, was just slaughtered in their own homes, having a cow, having it hired in safe rooms, which were then kind of like smashed in or burnt down and people being burnt alive, tied up, and the rapes and the beheadings really did happen because we, you know, I’ve got, my niece saw the evidence of this. So all of this happened. This was never supposed to happen again. To happen in their own homes on a scale like that is simply incredible.

And for that, and the reason why I came out publicly, I’d never, I hadn’t done before. People come out, people think I knew I was a Jew, because in, I think, Martyr this year, I’d actually come out in defense of, I’d said, as a Jew, I’m coming out in defense of Andrew Bridgen, because I think he was wrongly accused of antisemitism because of the so-called comparison of the Holocaust, blah, blah. So I came out publicly then. Of course, within the freedom movement, people like that because they liked.

you know, I along with many in the freedom movement hated the idea that people were being wrongly accused of anti semitism just because they were saying things like you know, there’s that there are talking about sort of globalists are talking about people like Soros and you’re accused of anti semitic dogwits. It’s all of that stuff. So I, although I’d, yeah, I’d come out as do that nobody, I guess knew what my position was on Israel. Maybe they maybe they thought I was, you know,

Norman Fenton (08:16.39)
didn’t have any opinion at all, I was an anti-science, but as soon as that, on October the 7th, when I started to see that people were actually celebrating what was going on, people in the freedom movement, right, were actually either celebrating or justifying what was happening then, I felt I had to speak out as a member of that movement because this was, should have been everything, it should have been the antithesis of everything that the freedom movement stood for.

And yet I was seeing people who I had previously respected actually coming out with this justification. And very, very quickly, it went from within less than 24 hours, it went from celebration justification of the massacre to it being an inside job. You know, it’s all set up by the Israelis, which is something I’m very happy to expose why that is a complete, why that is a complete lie.

Ahmad (09:13.256)
Norman, this don’t-

Norman Fenton (09:14.506)
And then and then and the final one is it then got on to it didn’t happen at all. It was all a Psyop Yeah

Ahmad (09:20.236)
Norman, we’re gonna talk about all these things, but you know what my style is? I like to have a conversation. I don’t like interviews and I don’t like too long monologues. And the thing is, because you’ve raised so many points and I wanna talk to you about them and digest them. And I’m running out of space now on my page. So, you were saying, you said something about there was no such thing as Palestine and that your grandfather had a…

Norman Fenton (09:27.785)

Norman Fenton (09:33.198)

Ahmad (09:49.548)
passport that said Ottoman or Turkish. The thing I want to say about that is there’s been a lot of empires. And take the Austrian-Hungary empire, take the British empire. And Britain took over a third or a quarter of the globe and everything was pink, the famous pink map. And the thing is when you went to Africa, there was no country there because the lands had been overtaken. The kings and monarchs had been deposed.

Norman Fenton (10:06.871)

Uh huh.

Ahmad (10:17.824)
So yes, there might not have been a state as such beforehand, but there were peoples there who identified themselves as a group of people with their land or kingdom or territory. Same with India. India had its own statelets. And afterwards, Pakistan didn’t exist before. But to say that there’s no such thing as the Palestine, that’s not 100% correct. Because even if you go back to the papers from 1917 and Balfour Declaration, they talk about the Palestinian homeland.

And the Ottoman Empire took over the Arabian Peninsula, the Mesopotamians, the Iraqis, the Yemenis, the Egyptians, and each one of these areas is a separate distinct area. And people kind of like, I’m just saying this as someone who has no skin in the game. And I think that has its plus side as well. I’m not Palestinian, I’m not a Muslim, I’m not a Jew, I’m not a Christian.

So I can stand back and I’m just objectively describing the situation that nowadays a lot of people just label the word Arab. And actually that’s not strictly correct. It’s just like saying Canadians are the same as Australians because guess what, they’re white and speak English and they’ve got a Christian background. Australians and Canadians would be very upset about that. They’re two distinct groups of people and they have their own culture and everything. And the same with in these Arab homelands.

Each one of these people have been there for thousands of years. And yes, a majority converted to Islam 1500 years ago, but they still have their own cuisine. They still have their own culture, their own music. Even the language is slightly different. But, you know, there was a place called Palestine. And to say that, you know, that doesn’t exist. I, you know, I struggle with that. Now you talked about the 1920s riots. I’m just talking about the 1920s riots in the Palestinian homeland.

Norman Fenton (12:03.779)
That was it.

Ahmad (12:10.48)
And my understanding from reading, you know, different historical texts and speaking to Rabbi Wise was that actually Christians, Jews and Muslims lived happily, but in the, you saw in the 1900s, an influx of Jewish immigration. And, and there are a very clear statement from the Balfour Declaration that they’re going to create an Israeli, so Jewish state and the locals in that area weren’t very happy about that. They saw.

people taking their land and taking, you know, I’m trying to take over the country and that’s why there were riots. I don’t know, that’s my understanding. Now, moving on. You said outside of Israel, you know, this Hamas massacre, it’s, you know, the deadliest terrorist attack for per capita, per number of people. You know, there is no denying there was a massacre.

I mean, I don’t know the numbers, but it’s 1400 plus or whatever. And it was absolutely awful. And the images and everything.

Norman Fenton (13:12.69)
Certainly plenty of people sorry just plenty of people in the freedom movement do deny that was a massacre incidentally, but yeah now Oh References look at take a look at you what you take a look at what George Galloway Have a look at George Galloway is tweets which people and people in the freedom movement are retweeting extensively. He’s saying

Ahmad (13:20.369)
I’ve not heard anyone deny that. Who’s been denying?

Ahmad (13:28.408)
Please, please do. I find that shocking.

Norman Fenton (13:40.045)
There was no such a thing, there were no rapes, there were no baby killings, blah blah.

Ahmad (13:44.136)
Okay, okay. So anyway, coming to that. So say we take the figure of 1,400 in a population of Israel of what? Five, six, seven million? What’s the population of Israel?

Norman Fenton (13:54.43)
7 million Jews, I think now there’s maybe 8.5 million or 9 million total population.

Ahmad (14:01.172)
Okay, so you got 1,407 million Jews. But in the last six weeks, you’ve had over 11,000 deaths amongst 2.3 million Gazans.

Norman Fenton (14:13.342)
Okay, well, you know that to rely, it’s this is one of the most interesting aspects of this whole thing. So people who said question everything in freedom movement, a totally believing every single statement that comes from Gars about casualties. These casualties are coming from Hamas, these casualty figures are coming completely from Hamas. Don’t believe them, right? There are of course, civilian casualties. There are of course civilian casualties.

Ahmad (14:36.46)
But then some will say you’re no different from George, some will say that you’re no different from George Galloway questioning the Israeli numbers. You know, these are official numbers coming out.

Norman Fenton (14:47.834)
Yeah, I am because it’s this more is this morally is this moral equivalence again The Hamas is somehow equivalent to the Israeli government, but I don’t accept that it’s complete nonsense, right? But and what’s more we’ve got plenty of evidence. Just go back to the previous conflicts Go back to the previous conflicts when all of these Hamas casualty these figures coming out of mass were later completely debunked, right? It turned out that for example in the 2000

Ahmad (14:55.5)
No. Do you think-

No, no, no.

Norman Fenton (15:16.198)
14 conflict it turned out that something like 75 percent of their so-called civilian casualties were Hamas operatives right you just have to go look at the end up looking at the actual the Ages of the ages and sex you know they’re predominantly males age between the age of 17 and 40 Of course there are civilian casualties right we know that right but the point is Hamas are the ones who use their civilians

as human shields. The Israelis warn before every single attack. It’s unprecedented. What Israel does to try and minimise civilian casualties is completely unprecedented in war.

Ahmad (15:53.12)
Okay, okay, Norman, do you equate every Palestinian in Gaza as Hamas?

Norman Fenton (16:02.411)

Ahmad (16:04.054)
Okay, so I’m just saying, the figure of-

Norman Fenton (16:05.89)
But there are a heck of a lot of Hamas operatives in there. And of course, as you know, they did, Hamas is the elected government of Gaza.

Ahmad (16:11.68)
So, so.

Ahmad (16:16.456)
I know back in 2006, they’ve not had another fair election since then. Most of these children who are dying weren’t even born. So that’s not the people’s fault. That’s not the public’s fault. Do we have a fair election?

Norman Fenton (16:22.294)
Yeah, because Hamas won’t allow it. Because Hamas won’t allow it. Hamas is the government. Well, do you deny, hang on a second, do you deny that Hamas uses their civilian population as human shields?

Ahmad (16:38.284)
Can I be honest with you? I don’t know, I’ve never seen anything directly, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re, you know, it’s a very small area and they’re probably.

Norman Fenton (16:45.206)
Well, there’s enormous evidence. Have a look at even last week, when Israel created the humanitarian corridor for the civilians to evacuate, Hamas was killing, Hamas was shooting and killing those people. And of course they tried to pin it on Israel and they proved there’s absolutely concrete, hard evidence that Hamas did this, their own people were saying it.

Ahmad (16:49.344)
So I know, I know, but can I?

Ahmad (17:03.656)
Okay, I’ve seen, do you think Israel ever use these human shields? IDF uses them. So I can send you a video of IDF soldiers with a tied up Palestinian and the soldiers crouching behind him.

Norman Fenton (17:11.006)
No. No they don’t. No they don’t.

Norman Fenton (17:20.622)
That’s complete bullshit. That’s complete bullshit. You are falling. Ahmad, you are falling for… Look… You don’t know the context for that video. You don’t absolutely know what the context for that video is.

Ahmad (17:28.222)
I’ve seen the video. The soldier is crouched behind a blindfolded, kneeling down Palestinian, and he’s got his gun behind this Palestinian blindfolded man. If that’s not a human shield, what is? I’m just saying, I think there’s problems everywhere. I think I don’t trust Hamas, and I don’t trust the Israeli government. I don’t trust either of them.

I actually think that they’re both anti-human. The same government that was injecting vaccines in the Palestinian occupied territories, Hamas and whatever, and the same government in Israel injecting all the people in Israel. These are anti-human people. I don’t think they care about their people. That’s just personally my opinion.

Norman Fenton (18:15.854)
Well, hang on a second. Where is that different? Where is that different to any other country in the world now? Other than maybe Africa who had the good sense not to vaccinate anybody? Where is it any different? Why? Where were they any less? Yeah. Why are you seeing that? Yeah.

Ahmad (18:25.068)
Exactly. And this is why, this is, this is why if you listen to my podcast, you know, I don’t trust, I don’t trust governments. I’m telling you, I don’t, I don’t trust the Hamas government. I don’t trust the Israeli government. I don’t trust governments. I think, I think governments are just

Norman Fenton (18:38.198)
No, but… Right, you don’t trust, you shouldn’t trust the British government and the American government, the French government. So why single out Israel for this? Why have you… Why are people… This whole thing… Ah, but a lot of people are, people…

Ahmad (18:44.7)
No, I’m not. I’m not. I just told you I don’t trust Hamas government either. I just literally said in the same sentence, the same breath, I don’t trust the Hamas government. I don’t, I really don’t. I don’t think they care about their people.

Norman Fenton (19:02.41)
Yeah, but you didn’t, you didn’t go so far as saying, but as I say, you shouldn’t, but it’s, it’s this singling out. Okay, you don’t trust Hamas government, but the whole point about that, the anti-humanist agenda, people say, well, it was, you know, Israel was the, the lab for Pfizer. And of course I’ve been very vocal, as you know, about criticizing the Israeli government for doing that. And I was especially vocal about the way they were covering up, you know, even the Israeli Ministry of Health were covering up the sort of the issues about vaccine.

Safety, right, but they were no different. They were actually no different to any of the other governments in the world in this respect Right in actual fact the interesting thing about this is that people say I will you know Israel deliberate is you know by By leading that whole no vaccination push, you know the Israeli government was kind of like deliberately You know was deliberately killing its own people. So if it’s going to deliberately kill its own people on that Why wouldn’t it deliberately kill?

its own people and politicians, blah, all that stuff. Well, actual fact, A, that was no different to any other government in the world, right? But B, you’ve got to understand the mentality of Bibi Netanyahu during this, right? Bibi Netanyahu genuinely believed that he was kind of like a light to the world here. Yeah, he actually genuinely believed initially, I’m convinced of this, right? That, as a lot of the leaders did, that the vaccines were, you know, were going to be a great benefit. I mean,

know, people, there are plenty of people in the freedom, we know very well mutual friends who were gagging to get the vaccine, right, and thought that it really was the way out of the, you know, the COVID crisis and all of that. So you’ve got all of that going on and Bibi Netanyahu genuinely is up there, he thought he was going to be considered to be a hero and well that’s why he did it. He was not, believe me, he was not planning, he did not deliberately, he wasn’t, what he didn’t have in mind was a plan to deliberately kill like,

massive number of the Israeli population. Incidentally, I don’t believe in that part of the, as you know, I believe strongly that the vaccines are not effective and they’re certainly not safe, but I don’t believe in that the depopulation agenda with the vaccines because I think that the globalists have other ways of moving towards depopulation rather than vaccines, right? The whole anti-family thing and…

Norman Fenton (21:23.47)
all of that stuff is, and the whole woke agenda is all about kind of like reducing the family unit, minimize the family. So their agenda didn’t never required killing large parts of the population with the vaccine. I think that there will be, you know, there’s evidence that there have been plenty of vaccine deaths, etc. And I think there will be a lot of earlier deaths than would otherwise happen with the vaccine. But so that, you know, that whole part of it, and that trope that

Netanyahu actually always planned to kill most of his population with the vaccine nonsense. But anyway, yeah, so no different from the other governments.

Ahmad (21:58.264)
I think just talking about that, just 100%, I don’t think, and I don’t know the mindset of these world leaders. I don’t know if they’re literally mindless controlled willful blindness or whether they’re idiots or they’re puppets or they’re evil. I don’t know, but there was something very lockstep amongst the Western world, the developed world with these vaccines. And it was kind of scary how they adopted it and threw out precautionary principles.

got in bed with big pharma, which has a bad track record anyway. Um, I think it was worrying. I don’t know what the mindset of these leaders are. And I agree. I don’t think issue was any different. I mean, if you just look at all the countries and what they’re doing, but it was mainly, you know, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, America, and Europe and Israel. These were the main countries pushing this, which was kind of worrying. But you’re right. I don’t think Netanyahu went ahead and said, look, I’m going to kill all my people. I mean, that’s, I don’t think so.

As for the depopulation, Norman, I don’t know. I’m open on this one. I don’t think it was mass extermination in one fell swoop. I mean, you would have had the mob in the street by then. But I think, speaking to people like JJ Cree, I think this will definitely shorten lifespans. I think it will increase mortality. We’ve seen that with Ed Dowd, and I’m talking about excess mortality. We’re looking at decreased fertility. And I agree with you, there’s more than one way that they can…

achieve their depopulation, one of which is conflict, one of which is war, famine, you know, lack of food and destroying the family unit. So, you know, I don’t subscribe to this whole Netanyahu, you know, either. I think that’s not true. What I would say is, I think Netanyahu is a power hungry leader and he’s got a history of potential corruption going on. He seems to be going in and out of court all the time and there’s always a bad air around him.

And I also know just before this war, there was like massive protests against him, hundreds of thousands on the street, but now his position seems to be solidified and there’s a law now being passed where you can’t, you can’t reduce or damage the morale of the country. Otherwise someone’s coming knock, knock on your door and putting you in jail, which is, you know, a very strange thing to be doing. So I don’t know. I mean,

Norman Fenton (24:16.462)
Yeah, but there’s an interesting thing about that. Can I just respond to that point about this? That again, people who don’t know Israel like I do, don’t know Israel politics like I do. Netanyahu’s career is over after this conflict. No Israeli leader, right, who’s ever been at the wrong end, who’s ever suffered kind of like military defeats or where they’ve been caught by surprise, et cetera, just look back to the history of what happened after this or the Yom Kippur.

Ahmad (24:26.988)
Fill in, fill in.

Norman Fenton (24:44.63)
war where they were caught by surprise then. They don’t survive this. Believe me, this is this is Netanyahu. He’ll last while the war lasts and it will, they’ve got, it’s because it’s formed a government of national unity. And of course, he’s, he’s put in these special war time measures, as you say, which I don’t like, because I don’t like, you know, you know, I’m a free speech absolutist, all that sort of stuff. But I can kind of understand and you have to understand even the, even the, even the extreme left in Israel, right?

Apart from a tiny sort of, there’s a tiny fraction of anti-Zionists, which is something I want to get onto also in the discussion because it relates to what Rabbi Weiss said. Even the extreme left have completely coalesced around, they are absolutely determined that the government nationality is right and that Hamas has to be destroyed because if Hamas isn’t destroyed, this is all going to happen again, only much bigger.

Ahmad (25:19.565)
Let’s do it.

Norman Fenton (25:40.17)
And that’s a key thing. That’s another thing that people who are calling for the ceasefires now, don’t understand that a ceasefire will simply leave Hamas in place. And this will be much worse next time around. It will never stop. So even the left in Israel, all of those who were out on the street, as you say, protesting Netanyahu, they’ve actually, or it’s a united, the nation, the country of Israel is absolutely united behind this effort.

But Netanyahu afterwards will be, he’s toast, he’s toast.

Ahmad (26:08.565)

Ahmad (26:12.588)
I don’t know, he seems like a Teflon man. Can I just go back to one more thing? You said this attack was like the worst thing since the Holocaust. I can see why you would say that with your background, but there’d be a lot of people who would disagree with you and I’ll explain why. So I was speaking to an Iraqi just last.

Norman Fenton (26:29.31)
Oh sorry, I meant worse attack against Jews, sorry. There have been, of course there have been unbelievable other. Sorry, no, I mean, just look at what’s happened in, what happened in Syria, Sudan, Yemen, all these places, Ethiopia, all the African countries, yeah.

Ahmad (26:39.48)
Thank you.

Yeah, in Iraq, one million people died in Iraq after the Gulf War. You know, sanctions, bombing, sanctions, everything. I mean, that’s just, you know, one in what, 40, one in 30 of their population. I mean, horrific. And. Thank you.

Norman Fenton (26:45.002)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah.

Norman Fenton (26:54.698)
Yeah, no, I was specifically referring to the worst things to happen to the Jewish people.

Ahmad (27:00.264)
Yeah, yeah. And you know, so the way I look at it is what I’m worried about is one, this massive division and divide and conquer kind of attitude that I’m seeing going on because like, I don’t know if you agree with this or not, but I think there’s a bunch of people, the predator class, the corporate body, who want to have this one world government. They want to subjugate us all. You know, you talked about the 15 minute cities.

they’re introducing it in Tel Aviv and all that kind of stuff, and here in London. It’s a global thing. It’s a global pattern. Digital IDs, digital currencies. And these people don’t care about Londoners or people in Jerusalem, Jews or Christians or Muslims. These people at the top who I don’t think have any religion, as far as I’m concerned, if they have a religion, it’s a satanic religion. These people want to have a one world government and control us all.

Norman Fenton (27:50.498)
Hmm, yeah.

Ahmad (27:55.068)
And to achieve that, they will do whatever. And it’s all about chaos. It’s about conflict. It’s about division, distraction. You know, can we agree on that?

Norman Fenton (28:05.238)
Yep. In fact, I actually think there is a globalist, contrary to lots of people, let’s say on the Israel side, I actually do think there is a globalist aspect to this conflict, right? But it’s not necessarily the one that most people think of.

Ahmad (28:22.253)
Tell me.

Norman Fenton (28:24.122)
And it’s the fact that, A, of course, none of this would have happened, interestingly enough, if Trump had still been in power, because he actually had a different vision, somewhat different vision to the globalists, right? He’d set up the Abraham Accords, and he was minimizing the power of the Ayatollahs in Iran. This is a crucial thing. Now, Iran, of course, is our…

Ahmad (28:31.116)

Norman Fenton (28:51.314)
None of this would have happened without the Iranian control of Hamas and Hezbollah. Incidentally, another thing that’s missing from this, people don’t realize what happened, is the massive number of attacks coming from the north in Israel by Hezbollah, which is also just an Iranian sponsored terrorist group. And also even from Syria, where of course also Iran has their massive influence. So all of these neighboring states firing rockets,

Israel, nothing to do with Gaza, because this is in the north and south. And incidentally, that has caused 500,000 Israeli refugees, because they’ve had to move them out of the north as well as the south anyway. But the globalist thing is it’s the role of Iran. Iran, which sees itself as a globalist power, remember, it wants to establish an Islamic caliphate, etc. So they obviously wanted this to happen. And the timing was such that they wanted to destroy the, you know,

But here’s the interesting thing, who else wanted all of that destroyed? It was actually the Biden regime, whoever’s controlling Biden in America, whether it’s Obama or whoever controls Obama. It goes back to the 2008 when Obama, when he came in, he decided that he wanted a new global vision for the world, which was not totally controlled by America, but he wanted to, he actually wanted to empower Iran.

So all of this empowerment of the Ayatollahs in Iran, he had the chance when there was the popular revolution going on in Iran, 2009, if Obama would have actually supported, at least expressed some words of support for that, we could have got rid of, you know, we, the Iranian people could have been freed from the Ayatollahs, right? None of this would have happened. This is all dates back to the fact that Iran, ever since Obama came to power, has been massively empowered, right? And you’ve now got

Ahmad (30:41.869)

Norman Fenton (30:49.326)
vision, his vision somehow was that maybe it’s because they wanted to have this worldwide conflict. He wanted to have a world where there was equal power between the likes of China. He wanted to support a China-Iran-Russia axis against the western axis, right? That was always of the Obama vision that you shouldn’t have an America dominated world, right? His idea of a you

Ahmad (31:15.672)

Norman Fenton (31:19.126)
these equally strong globalist groups, you know, the West and a very, very strong alliance of with Russia, China, and Iran, because he also empowered China as much as he did it as much as he did Iran. Of course, Trump tried to stop all that. Right? And they didn’t talk they didn’t like it, of course, because grunt Trump was not, although he screwed up on the vaccines, I’ve got, you know, my own views about how that happened. I think it was also because he was totally

you know, under the spell of the same sort of expert class, the technocratic elite as who did it everywhere else, right. But they made sure they got rid of him. And I think to a certain extent, the, the whole kind of like COVID hysteria 2020 was actually one of the ways they actually one of the methods they use to get rid of Trump, because it destroyed the American economy, etc. As what happened as soon as Trump was as soon as Biden gets in.

All of that got reversed. He said straight away they didn’t like the Abraham Accords. They immediately gave all this money back to Iran. They redid the nuclear deal, completely strengthened Iran. And just a few weeks ago, he gave $6 billion to Iran in return for what was it, one American hostage. That money has been used to fund Hamas and Hezbollah.

All of this, indeed, it could not have happened without those global, without that globalist interests.

Ahmad (32:41.164)
Can I, can I, can I just.

Can I comment? That was very interesting. I’m not sure if I’m 100% on board with all of it. I mean, so I just want to clarify, you know Hamas is part of the Muslim Brotherhood, which originates from Egypt, and which is of the Sunni, Sunni disposition. And they were supported by the MMI-6 originally, and they’re Sunni-based, Hamas. And they’re actually…

Norman Fenton (32:58.326)
Yeah, exactly.

Norman Fenton (33:05.179)
Yep. I know, exactly.

Norman Fenton (33:15.536)

Ahmad (33:15.724)
funded and supported by Netanyahu and Mossad and Israel for many years. Netanyahu’s

Norman Fenton (33:20.081)
No. No, no, that’s a trope.

Ahmad (33:23.512)
But that’s true. That’s.

Norman Fenton (33:24.118)
can tell you about because right I’ll tell you about that I’ll tell you about that and it’s that you should

Ahmad (33:27.688)
Give me a second, give me a second, give me a second, you come back to that in a second. But take Hezbollah, Hezbollah is Lebanese and they are Shiite. Hamas and Hezbollah have got no connection in that respect. They don’t like each other. They’re, from a religious point of view, completely the opposite. And while I think for sure Hezbollah is funded by Iran,

I don’t see any connection with Hamas. And a lot of people around the world, and I would say.

Can I just finish? There’s a lot of people in the Muslim world who would argue that where’s the hard evidence of Iranian support when actually America is pumping billions into Saudi Arabia, into UAE, into Israel, bombing Yemen, bombing Gaza. These are all F-16s, bunker busting weapons. So yes, you can point fingers at Iran, but there’s another…

Norman Fenton (34:03.17)

Ahmad (34:31.564)
group, there’s another big powerful force, America, which is enabling a lot of violence to happen in the Middle East. And no one talks about that as if America is this, you know, virtuous state, it does nothing but good. And actually a lot of the world, not just the Arab world, will look at America as an imperial force, an interfering force, whose cause, you know, Libya to be overturned and now a failed state, bomb Sudan.

bombed Yemen, bombed Iraq to smithereens, bombed Syria. I mean, what I’m trying to say is, when you bomb all these countries, you don’t make friends. These people think you’re the enemy. Now Israel, you talked about Israel being attacked from the North. Israel has occupied part of Syria for decades now, and it flies in and bombs part of Syria all the time. It bombs Lebanon, it flies over Lebanon, it breaks their airspace all the time.

And, and, and the UN has passed multiple resolutions saying that this is wrong and you shouldn’t be doing that. So if you go and ask a Lebanese or a Syrian, they’ll say the Israeli army and air force are, you know, bullies, they’re, they’re terrorizing us. So what I’m trying to say is there’s always two sides of the story, you know? Um, so anyway, you’re

Norman Fenton (35:43.766)
Yeah, but all of those is first, yeah. To go on, first of all, there’s a few things you picked up there. So first of all, you’re absolutely right. The Sunnis and the Shiites have been at war with each other and of course massacred each other on a scale so much greater than anything that’s ever happened between the Jews and the Muslims, right? We know that and that’s historic. But they have one very, very important common interest. They seek the complete elimination of Israel.

and they are controlled, both of those groups, whatever you say, all the evidence, they are controlled by Iran, right? As are the groups in Syria. And the reason Israel, you’re quite right, every so often, normally after there’s been missile attacks, always in response to missile attacks from Lebanon, they will go and take out some sites in Lebanon and Syria. And then inevitably, in Syria, it’s usually the Iranian Republican Guard.

people there because there are massive military and that they’re in Lebanon, of course, and in Syria, and they will take out in fact, they did even at the start of the even just after the October 17, they actually bombed part of the airport in Syria in Syria, because Iranians were developed were actually putting in massive long range were delivering new long range missiles there. So they attempted to take that out.

And that’s always what they try to do. They try to stop all of these targeted strikes against these military installations and against the trying to stop the delivery of weapons which are gonna be used to attack Israel. So yes, I don’t deny that happens. Of course it happens, but I just wanna put in the context of why that happens. And it’s this existential threat that Israel faces from those organizations which are funded to Iran, which is driving this whole conflict now. But you’re absolutely right.

whole point, that’s what you said about America, especially since, you know, the supposed peacemaker Obama came to power in 2008. That’s when that whole, you know, he thought this whole Arab Spring, he had this idea of a vision of America, that the Arab world would suddenly become sort of a, you know, super democratic and they, you know, they’d welcome gays and lesbians and all that sort of nonsense, which is, you know, absolutely ridiculous.

Norman Fenton (38:03.246)
total misunderstanding of what the culture of those areas are. And when the all the Arab Spring did was bring in these as you say, his Muslim brotherhood, the Muslim brotherhood took over in places like Egypt and Libya. And the American response was to as you say, to sort of bomb the hell out of them. Right? Absolutely ridiculous. That was, you know, so again, I agree that there, a lot of that, again, the globalist thing where I said that whole point about the, you know, the Obama regime wanting to empower

Iran, China, etc. They were also quite happy, as you say, they were also prepared to increase the level of conflict by bombing those Arab countries as well. So that’s, and it’s about…

Ahmad (38:43.308)
Yeah, but I would say it was the opposite way around for Libya. It was a peaceful state and America and NATO funded the Muslim Brotherhood and bombed the government to smithereens so that the fanatic Muslim fundamentalists came to power. And then those same Muslim fundamentalists from Qatar, UEE, Pakistan, have all been trained by Wahhabi schools and madrassas. They invaded Libya, destroyed it.

Norman Fenton (38:51.871)
Yeah, I can.

Ahmad (39:12.444)
send it back to the dark ages. And then there was shipments of those same Muslim fanatics, sponsored by the West, shipped over through Turkey into Syria. And then this very beautiful, multi-ethnic, ancient civilization, Syria, Christian, Muslim, Jew, everybody used to live there, Druze, Yezidi, whatever.

They were bombed to smithereens and the Muslim fanatics killed more Muslims than anyone else in Syria. And guess who supported them? The West. And when the Muslim fundamentalist FSA soldiers were injured, Israel took them in and helped them. Israel was like, yeah, you’re an enemy of Assad. You know, we’ll take you in. I mean, I’m just saying the world is a complicated, messed up place.

Norman Fenton (39:56.342)
Yeah, that’s an interesting one because Israel is down, it does it, that is down, it didn’t because it’s always actually always as even against even when they’ve been fighting against Hezbollah in Lebanon, they have always treated the injured if there are injured soldiers, if even with the even terrorists who’ve just committed heinous terrorist acts, for example, even in Tel Aviv, they will get the best medical treatment if they’re still alive after the terrorist attack. So that’s just something that, you know, I don’t like that. Right. I don’t think you should.

be particularly, I don’t agree with this, you know, going out of your way to be humane to your enemies. But unfortunately, well, they think Israel wants to be seen as this sort of light to the world. So they do that. I mean, it’s so they think that.

Ahmad (40:39.143)
That’s a Geneva convention. You need to do that. In any civilized state, we’d have to do that.

Norman Fenton (40:41.086)
Yeah, so there’s that. So they have done that. But going back to the thing about the funding, because this is a repeated trope, this idea that Israel is the funder of Hamas and Israel founded Hamas. As you said, no, for a start, Hamas came out of the Muslim Brotherhood, right? From Egypt, which dates back to what, 1929 or whatever. They’re part of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood. What happened in the early 80s, of course,

Israel saw them as a counterweight to the PLO, which is of course terrorist organization, who were the ones mounting the intifada and the terrorist attacks against Israel all those years. Hamas didn’t yet have a military…

Ahmad (41:23.152)
They would say they’re terrorists to you, but they would say that they’re resistance fighters or freedom fighters.

Norman Fenton (41:29.862)
Whatever. So the PLO was Israel’s enemy at that time. And KAMAAS didn’t have any military capability at the time. In actual fact, it seemed to be doing, although it was a Muslim problem, they were doing what was considered to be quite good charitable work. They were setting up hospitals. They were actually genuine. They were genuinely caring for ordinary Palestinians, which the PLO never did. The PLO was unbelievably one of the most corrupt.

Ahmad (41:47.66)
Hospitals, clinics, schools. Yeah, yeah.

Norman Fenton (41:59.846)
Prior to Hamas, it was one of those corrupt organizations. So at that point, it’s true. It’s true that Israel offered support to Hamas as a counterbalance against the PLO. They didn’t set up Hamas. That’s complete nonsense of course. That’s a big trope. Whether or not they provided funding or whatever. I think, again, most of the funding, it was done via things like the UN aid and international aid, which Israel kind of like

Ahmad (42:00.158)

Ahmad (42:17.641)
I know that.

Norman Fenton (42:29.702)
enabled to get through to Hamas rather than get to the PLO. So you’ve got that aspect of it. But as soon as the Oslo Accords happened in the early 1990s, 1993, PLO normally was now no longer an enemy, at least not a military enemy of Israel anymore. And Hamas launched that incredible campaign of suicide bombings because they wanted to displace

always had in their charter, we’re talking about the Hamas charter, it was always in their charter to destroy the state of Israel. The Israeli government, the Aitists, thought they could control that, oh they don’t really mean it, all that stuff. No, they really meant it, right, and they were looking for the opportunity and that opportunity came after Oslo when they then started this incredible round of suicide attacks to try and destroy it, destroy the Oslo agreements.

this idea that there’s been any Israel funding since then, that now came that the only thing now is this whole thing about as recently as actually in September, there was something in 2018. After a previous conflict, right? Where Qatar, where under pressure from the Americans, Israel agreed to allow Qatar to provide this massive injection of funding to Hamas. Again, the Israeli government allowed it.

on the understanding that Hamas would stop firing rockets. Right, and as recently as I think it was September the 23rd of 2023, there was a new massive injection of Qatari funding that went to Hamas in Gaza, which was allowed by the Israeli government, specifically because they believe they now had some kind of proper ceasefire in place, that Hamas would no longer be firing rockets, right? And yet, they’d been planning this, not only did the massacre happen two weeks later,

right? But they’ve been clearly had been we now know it been planned for over two years. So that’s the that’s the context for the so called Israel being the funders and founders of Hamas. It’s it’s just bullshit.

Ahmad (44:40.376)
Can I ask you something Norman? Does the Israeli government ever do anything wrong? Is it ever on the wrong side? Does it ever make, you know, do the wrong thing? Or is it always right?

Norman Fenton (44:44.052)

Norman Fenton (44:50.134)
Well, I’ve just said, I mean, I was one of the most vocal opponents calling out what Israel was doing wrong throughout the whole.

Ahmad (44:55.612)
No, no, I’m talking about towards the Palestinians.

Norman Fenton (45:06.41)
Look, Israel and the problem is that the Palestinians, the Palestinians have never had any leadership who’ve ever declared publicly that they’re prepared to accept a Jewish state in any of the original part of Palestine. So you have to understand, I mean, in your, it sort of brings me on to the sort of things. It’s all about this idea that the Palestinians are,

you know, sort of peace that always a peace loving people always live with in harmony with the Jews, all of that sort of stuff. It’s a it’s again, it’s a it’s a nonsense. And you cut you have to understand the context of the conflict to understand why, why

Ahmad (45:45.9)
Why’d you say it’s nonsense? Because I’ve spoken to plenty of Jews that tell me the opposite, that for centuries they lived in peace.

Norman Fenton (45:54.614)
Well, prior to 1948, the Muslims and the Jews lived in harmony in Arab lands and in Palestine.

Ahmad (46:02.33)
Prior to 1917, yeah.


Norman Fenton (46:08.246)
The Jews, the Jews always were Dimmies in all of the Arab lands where they were a minority. Right? I mean, you understand the notion of Dimmie. D-H-I-M-I, M-M-I. They’re, they’re a lower class of citizens. They have to, they’re certain rules. They’re not allowed, they, they weren’t allowed to be armed. They have to, they’re certain they have to express this deference. They have to pay the tax to allow the Dimmie tax to allow them to live freely and to be

Ahmad (46:14.316)
What you mean, Demis?

No. Oh, you mean-

Norman Fenton (46:37.578)
Worship, you know because otherwise if you don’t pay that you know, there’s the you had to become you had to convert to Islam if you wanted to Live as a Jew indeed a Christian as well. You had to pay the Demetax So this whole idea that they were allowed sorry

Ahmad (46:51.136)
Well, I don’t agree with that stuff. That’s wrong. I don’t agree with that. That’s a bad thing to do.

Norman Fenton (46:56.502)
Well, that’s what they’ve done. Of course, but it happened. This is how they lived. This is how they lived in those Arab lands, right? Where are the Jews? Where are there any Jews in any Arab lands now? You’re saying this is all because of the state of Israel. I mean, there used to be, Baghdad in Iraq, 25% of the population in…

In the nineteen in the eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds were Jewish right? There’s not a single Jew living in Iraq now not single one Well that went to the Jews of Egypt went to the Jews of Lebanon went to Jews of Syria There’s none there anymore went to the Jews of Yemen went to Jews of Sudan all of these countries There’s none there it just have the only the only place where there’s actually any Jewish community at all in Muslim land is actually in Iran Well, I believe there’s still about 17,000 Jews right because actually I’ve always felt that naturally

naturally the Iranian people don’t have the animosity, the historical animosity against Jews that the Muslims in Arab lands have, right, which is an interesting and I actually think that had their, if the Ayatollahs were actually finally displaced in Iran, there would be incredibly good relations between Iran and Israel as there were indeed before the

There’s a natural affinity between the Iranian and Jewish people, but there isn’t between the Palestinian Arabs because they’ve been brought up with this hatred. This is incredible.

Ahmad (48:25.775)
So, can I just say something? Can I just say something?

So I know, I know, Norman, but you’ve kind of like just contradicted yourself and I don’t think you realize how. So you’ve just pointed out that there was Jews in Yemen and Syria and Iraq and Morocco and Egypt and Turkey and actually, you know where the biggest antisemitism was for most of Jewish history? Europe.

Norman Fenton (48:42.954)
But, tell me.

Ahmad (49:00.948)
Russia, Europe and America. Up until the Second World War, antisemitism was a huge problem in America and Western Europe and Eastern Europe, huge. After what happened in Spain in the 14, 1500s, and the Jews were expelled from Spain, guess where they went? They went to all the Muslim countries. So for centuries,

Jews were refugees and sheltered in Muslim countries where they were able to thrive, where they were courtesans, where they were the viziers of the Ottoman Empire. I mean, they had very high stations. They were able to trade, they were business people, and they were successful. And they’re in all these countries because they flourished, because they lived in peace with their neighbors. Now,

Norman Fenton (49:45.29)
Well, they were still living as Dimmies. This is the whole point. And the Jews have always, this is the whole thing, it comes back to the Zionist thing. They always wanted to return to their indigenous homeland in Israel.

Ahmad (49:47.824)
I, so, so-

Ahmad (49:54.168)
So, no, I know what I’m trying to… So forget about the Dimi thing, that’s totally wrong. I disagree with that. But what I’m trying to say is this idea that Muslims or Arabs hated Jews and wanted to exterminate them and get rid of them is not actually true because for centuries they lived, they were sheltered in these countries and were looked after them. There wasn’t any antisemitism there. I think it only happened when the Middle East-Palestinian-Israel conflict all kicked off and the wars.

Norman Fenton (50:20.234)
No, well, we’re begged to differ on that because, because there, historically, there was always, of course, you’re right, the massive anti-Semitism in Europe, but the anti-Semitism, I mean, look, it’s an interesting thing about that you said in your interview with Rabbi Weiss about the fact that Muslims aren’t taught to hate Jews, the opposite, they’re taught to love Jews. Actually, I want to ask you a question here.

you were brought up in the Ahmadi Muslim faith, that’s correct, isn’t it? Which is very, very different to the Sunni and Shia sect of Muslim. Am I correct in saying that?

Ahmad (50:55.2)

Ahmad (51:01.6)
Yeah, but I had lots of Sunni, Shia, I had lots of Sunni, Shia friends, particularly in university. All my friends were Sunni and Shia.

Norman Fenton (51:09.898)
Right, but you were brought up as an Ahmadi, which is a very different, much more tolerant type of Islam. Right? Now, are you aware of Hadith 2926 from Sahih al-Bukhari, Book 50? So it’s an interesting hadith, and it’s what is in the Hamas charter. It’s Hadith 2926, Sahih al-Bukhari, Book 56, Hadith 139.

Ahmad (51:29.629)
What hadith is it? So what hadith is it?

Norman Fenton (51:39.67)
And it’s a well-known one because it’s also stated in the Hamas Charter and it says the Prophet said the hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say O Muslim, there is a Jew behind me so kill him. Now that, that is in the Hamas Charter and that is in the Hadith and the idea that the Sunni

Ahmad (51:57.665)

Norman Fenton (52:09.642)
in particular, Sunni because actually there are differences as you know, but in particular the Sunni Muslims the idea that they’re taught to love Jews is a complete fabrication They talk they’ve been that’s I mean, that’s why You know jews had the demi status in arab countries. They were tolerant. They were tolerated. They were tolerated That’s the thing. It’s a difference between welcomed and tolerated and they were good the jews have been very good for every country where they’ve actually settled because

As you said, they tend to be clever people, they tend to be very good businessmen, they’ll adapt to the limitations of the professions that they’re allowed to actually be in. And they will generate lots of, not only good ideas, but they will generate wealth and they will stimulate economies. Now, again, lots of things you said that in your interview with Rabbi Weiss, this whole thing about the increase

in Jewish population in Palestine after the Balfour Declaration, you said that the British kind of helped that. No, for a start, there was of course, there was also a massive increase in the Arab Muslim population, people coming from Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, of course, Jordan was of course more than half of Palestine. That’s another issue that the whole of the Palestine in the Balfour Declaration was supposed to also consider Jordan a part of it. That was immediately handed

Norman Fenton (53:36.09)
the Arabs and became, you know, that was sort of transjordan then. But the point is, there were a massive influx of Arabs into Palestine then because of the wealth and the economy created by the Jews. And all of those Arabs, incidentally, are, you know, many of, some of whom actually were indeed forced to leave in 1948, are still of course classified as Palestinian refugees, even though they did come from the neighboring countries. So there’s, there’s

Ahmad (54:02.716)
Oh, okay. Okay, so we’re entering, no, we need to enter. So we’re entering the creation of Israel now. So this is interesting. So I think that’s very interesting take that you’ve got, but that’s very different from what I read, from what I read at the time.

Norman Fenton (54:05.07)
there’s that issue, but also…

Norman Fenton (54:21.09)
Would you know about the 1939 white paper? British white paper, 1939 British white paper.

Ahmad (54:25.132)
So can I just go back to the Balfour Declaration at the time of the Balfour Declaration in 1917? Basically, Lord Balfour, who was the British foreign secretary, penned a letter after a request by Lord Rothschild, Lionel Rothschild, who was a Zionist and wanted a state of Israel for the Jewish people. He asked Lord Balfour to pen this letter.

and they went backwards and forwards and they came up with an agreement. But at that time, 80% of the population of Palestine was Arab-Muslim, 10% was Arab-Christian, and 10% was Jewish. And there was an active.

Norman Fenton (55:04.342)
Yeah, but that includes Jordan. That includes Trans Jordan, remember, as well. Those figures. That includes Trans Jordan.

Ahmad (55:11.672)
Okay. I’m talking about the state of Palestine. Okay. But at that time, the major influx of migration was European Jews that were coming in. Now at the time of when Israel, the Israel, so the Zionist leadership unilaterally declared independence in 1948. And at that time, you know,

Norman Fenton (55:13.742)
because that was part of Palestine. Yeah.

Norman Fenton (55:28.1)
Yeah, all of whom…

Ahmad (55:39.052)
the UN came up with this plan just beforehand, where it said it was gonna give a third of the population, which was Jewish at that time, and had owned less than 7% of the land, they were gonna give them more than 50% of the state of Israel. And the remaining population of Arabs, who were about 66%, they were gonna get the minority of the land, even though they’re the major land owners. And even in the state of Israel at the time, there was no area that was

predominantly Jewish, even Tel Aviv, the Jaffa area, was still majority Arab. And at the time of that unilateral declaration for the state of Israel, what you then had leading up to it was, you need to understand that when there was a British mandate, the mandate was, you’re gonna help the people get independence. And they told the Arabs, support us against the Ottoman Empire, which was siding with the Germans during the First World War.

And if you do that, we’ll help you with independence and all your lands will become independent, including the Palestinians, you’ll get an independent land.

Norman Fenton (56:41.57)
Yeah, but they were talking about Arab land. They were talking about that. That’s an interest, isn’t it? That’s a well-known trope, this thing about the Lawrence of Arabia thing. They was talking about the Arab lands. Israel is, what is it, less than one hundredth, sorry, one thousandth, less than that, of the area of the Arab lands, which they were talking about then. They got there, you know, they got there. I mean, of course, the British carved out, you know, the states of Saudi Arabia and stuff like that. But they got there, they basically got their independence, right?

Ahmad (57:03.744)
The thing is, there were…

Norman Fenton (57:11.062)
Jordan, let’s say the two thirds of Palestine was given to Jordan. So that was supposed to be up for grabs as well.

Ahmad (57:11.104)
But the thing is, the land wasn’t.

Number one to-

No, but what I’m trying to say is where Israel is now, it wasn’t an empty land. There were lots of people living there. And to make the state of Israel, those people had to be displaced and it had to be ethnically cleansed and moved out. And the reason…

Norman Fenton (57:34.282)
No, they weren’t. The whole point was the ethnic cleansing. Look, you’re talking about, yeah, after June’s June after the Second World War, there were enormous shifts of population everywhere, right? I mean, as we said, we’ve already said 950,000 Jews from Arab Muslim lands were displaced forcibly, they didn’t, you know, they didn’t want to go, they were forcibly displaced, and most of them were resettled in Israel, right? Which instantly puts the light this whole idea that Israel’s filled with white, you know, white

Anglo-Saxon type people, it’s unbelievable, you know, nonsense, because if you go there, you’ll see that 70…

Ahmad (58:06.092)
So I’ve heard the opposite. I’ve heard that Israeli gangs were terrorizing and killing villagers, Palestinian villagers, and several villages were completely massacred. No, but this is like, this is documented. Departing, so you deny, but 750,000 Palestinians fled for no reason?

Norman Fenton (58:18.33)
Yeah, because you’ve heard lots of… you’ve heard lots of nonsense. You’ve heard lots of nonsense. All these things have been debunked. No, but documented by… I don’t accept this.

Norman Fenton (58:34.818)
Yeah, because most of them fled because they were told by the Arab armies, right? Get out until we cleanse it of Jews and then you can go back. That’s documented. This is all documented. This is all documented and…

Ahmad (58:47.248)
Oh, so, okay, that’s very interesting take. So I, from what I’ve read, Arab armies invaded after the Palestinians had been forced to displace and were being killed and massacred. You know, there were these terrorists.

Norman Fenton (58:51.334)
is undocumented.

Norman Fenton (59:02.395)
No, no, the Arabs invaded as soon as the United Nations actually formally agreed to the independence of the state of Israel. That’s when the Arab, I mean, and do you know that one percent of the entire Jewish population was wiped out in that war of independence, massacred, and they were taken from one percent, seven thousand of the seven hundred thousand Jews who were in Palestine.

Ahmad (59:14.616)
Do you know, but it wasn’t the UN that…

Ahmad (59:21.176)
So how many? How many?

Norman Fenton (59:31.222)
were actually killed during that war of independence. And all of the Jews, you talk about the Arabs displaced, right? Which of course, there were, of course, many were. What about the Jews from Judea? Every single one of them, in thriving communist like Gush Etzion, every single one of them was, I mean, many of them were massacred, and all of them were forced out. Every single Jew in East Jerusalem. Jews were a majority in Jerusalem, and had been, as you know, since the mid-

even the 1800s, right? Every single Jew in East Jerusalem, the holiest place for Jews, was forced out in 1948 by the Jordanians under British command, were forced out. Every single one was evacuated. So when they, in the 1967 war, when they got it back, of course the Jews wanted to reclaim areas where they had been a majority prior to 1948. And of course they wanted to reclaim parts of Judea,

Ahmad (01:00:24.172)
So this is very… Okay.

Norman Fenton (01:00:28.398)
thriving communities for many years before 1948. So it works both ways, but apparently it’s only the Jews who were expected to move and to move to different areas where their brethren are. The Palestinians couldn’t be expected to move the 15 miles from across to Jordan. No, that’s too much, that’s too much. Only-

only the only the Jews can do that and the Arabs must always stay every single place where they’ve ever been. That’s that’s theirs forever. If you want to go to the car if you want to go to this colonization, can I okay, should what about what about the colonization of Britain by in areas of Britain by people from the Middle East, primarily Muslims, right? 45% of Tower Hamlets where 50% is Muslim, right? Yes, they came there, they’re allowed in there legally, they bought the houses fine. Are you going to tell them now? Well, now that they’re

Ahmad (01:00:54.86)
So, so, so.

Ahmad (01:01:01.842)
So, remember…

Norman Fenton (01:01:22.85)
they’re soon going to be a majority and most of the councillors and elected representatives there are Muslim, they’re creating areas with Sharia law. Should the, would it be fair for the, should the British people now say, this is wrong, this is colonialism, you got to get back, get back to where you came from, you shouldn’t be here. Just like the Jews bought every, all of every single one of those Jews who came to Palestine.

Ahmad (01:01:45.624)
That’s, so, can I answer? Can I answer? So, so that’s an interesting example you give me. So if the Muslims that have come to this country said we want Sharia law and we wanna make now a Muslim caliphate in the UK, yeah, I’d think that’s really seriously wrong.

And if they said, we want to make an Islamic Republic of Britain, yeah, I think that’s really wrong. And if they moved all the native British people into Wales and Scotland and forced them there, yeah, I think that’s wrong. You know, I would be really against it. Now, this is where it comes to about this Zionist project. So if you take, for example, I spoke to someone called CJ Hopkins and he said, look, just take religion out of it. What’s happening in Israel and the Zionist project has happened.

a million times before in human history, whether you look at America, Australia, Africa, and you know, the Middle East, the Arabs, whatever. You get a bunch of people who want the land of another people and you will force those people out to take their land. And he goes, strip away the Bible and religion and everything. I mean, that’s what it’s all about. Don’t you agree that’s what Zionism is all about? There were people living in this land and another group of people have come along and said,

We want this land instead. You guys.

Norman Fenton (01:03:09.842)
But who was living there before? Who was living there before? Who was living there before the Muslim conquest? The Jews who was living in who what’s the only The only time in history before modern-day Israel where there was actually an independent Self-governing state in that land. It was only the The Jews of Israel judis called judis samaria because that’s where they that’s where the jews come from So how far how far do you want to go back in history?

Ahmad (01:03:13.42)
The Palestinians, the Palestinians.

Ahmad (01:03:27.508)
So, so can I, can I, can I, can I.

Ahmad (01:03:36.527)
So can I?

Norman Fenton (01:03:39.17)
They were displaced, they were massacred by the Romans. That’s why they were dispersed to the nations.

Ahmad (01:03:42.216)
I’m coming to this. The Arabs only converted that area around the eight hundreds. So, you know, after Jesus Christ, there was 800 years, then the Arabs came over and conquest and converted most of the people. But the idea that these are all ethnic, yeah, but these people are not ethnically

Norman Fenton (01:04:00.79)
Yeah, colonialists, they’re the colonialists.

Ahmad (01:04:07.456)
the same Arabs as the Saudi Arabian Peninsula. They were still native to that area. Just like Native Americans are now Christians and speaking English, you know, doesn’t mean that they’re still white Anglo-Saxon, you know, Colonians. They’re Native Americans who speak English. It’s the same with those Arabs who are in the Palestinian territories. They are native to that area. There were Phoenicians before, there were Judeans, there were Gondas, whatever, you know, their names were. And now they’ve…

you know, taking on the Arab language and Islam as a religion. But you know, that doesn’t mean that they’re the same ethnicity as the Arabs from Arab peninsula. These people have been there continuously. That’s where they’re from. This place wasn’t an empty land. Now, what are you saying? Are you? No, no, I want to ask you something.

Norman Fenton (01:04:56.987)
And every Arab, every Muslim in Israel, and I’m not talking about the Palestinian Authority, the Palestinian Authority areas where they control, every single Muslim in Israel, Israeli Muslim, has exactly the same rights as every Jewish person. And in fact the only thing,

Ahmad (01:05:00.584)
Yeah, so, yes.

Ahmad (01:05:06.06)

Ahmad (01:05:22.951)
Are you sure about that? Are you sure about that?

Norman Fenton (01:05:24.934)
Yes, I’m absolutely sure who do you think who imprisoned the Israeli president Moshe Katz have for corruption who it was it was an Arab Muslim Supreme Court judge right go and have a look at who’s fighting go and have a look at who’s can who’s Many of the soldiers in the Israeli army now you’ve got apart from all of the Druze who are actually conscripted I’m like the only I was gonna say the only thing the only difference in law between the

Ahmad (01:05:51.884)

Norman Fenton (01:05:54.322)
Muslims and Jews in Israel, citizens of Israel, is that Muslims are not forced to go into their army, they’re not subjected into the army, right? They don’t have to do their army service, right? Oh wow, that’s a great, what a terrible, everyone who wants to is invited to, and many of them do, but most of them don’t, most of them don’t. So this whole idea, this whole nonsense, this ridiculous…

Ahmad (01:06:14.956)
So can I ask you something? That’s, I love that.

Norman Fenton (01:06:20.818)
A path, Israel apartheid thing is so incredibly ridiculous because it’s so easy to disprove. That’s different. It’s different from the act from the Muslims who are living under Palestinian control in Gaza and the Palestinian Authority. Yeah, they certainly don’t have any rights to citizenship in the same rights as Arabs in Israel. But all of those Arabs, all the ones you’re talking about, the indigenous ones, the ones who stayed, the ones who stayed,

Ahmad (01:06:28.78)
I think that…

Ahmad (01:06:39.07)
So, Norman, but Norman.

Norman Fenton (01:06:46.878)
right, who didn’t flee, and have now massively increased in population. There’s two million of them in Israel. They’re 25% of the population. Enjoy the full rights. Go to Israel and see it. There’s nothing people who know nothing about Israel, who’ve never been there, have got this view of it, which is so completely wrong. You go there for a week and you see how all of this is proved completely wrong. This whole idea.

Ahmad (01:07:08.088)
Okay, okay, I love that. That’s great. But the thing is, you know how we talk about two-state solution? There can only be a two-state solution if you accept the fact that right now there’s just one state. The idea that the Palestinians have got their…

Norman Fenton (01:07:15.607)

Norman Fenton (01:07:22.526)
The Palestinians have been offered a two-state solution. They were offered it in 1948, as you said. They rejected it.

Ahmad (01:07:26.228)
So I know, hear me out, hear me out. I’ll tell you why, hear me out. So there’s one state right now and one state is occupying Gaza and the West Bank. And you might say, but they’re not.

Norman Fenton (01:07:40.226)
Wait, wait, wait

Ahmad (01:07:45.116)
I’ll explain. Yeah, I’ll explain. Can I explain? Can I, can I, can I explain? So when you have complete control of the land, air and water, sea, you know, routes, and your airport is bombed, and you’re not able to leave this open air prison, and you can’t go anywhere in the world.

and the Egyptian border is heavily influenced by Israel as well, then what is that?

Norman Fenton (01:08:18.543)
Oh, that’s all the fault of the Jews. So, Israel now tells Egypt is under the control of the Jews. Do you seriously believe that?

Ahmad (01:08:28.488)
I never said that. I said the border, the agreement is, you know, with Israel, what can and cannot come out of Egypt. Now, with regards to why they’ve turned back the two-state solution, you just need to look at maps of the West Bank and the settlers and where, you know, and people say settlers and other people say colonialists where you’ve got the West Bank and over every decade, more and more land is being taken away. And now you’ve basically just got multiple ghettos. You don’t, you don’t,

Norman Fenton (01:08:55.17)
No, no, it was all reverted, a lot of that hasn’t been the new settlement since the Oslo Accords.

Ahmad (01:08:58.152)
You don’t, no, let me, let me, let me start. Let me start. There, there are no, there are no, there’s no contiguous Palestinian land in the West Bank. There is, you know, there’s boundaries and walls. There’s roadblocks. You know, villagers can’t go to their fields and their olive groves. They can’t go from town to town. There’s checkpoints, there’s passes. This isn’t freedom. This isn’t them controlling the land. And the reason why many of the Palestinians hate their leadership,

whether it was the PLO or whether it’s Hamas, is that they feel that nothing’s changed, their life hasn’t gotten any better, and every year more and more land gets taken away, more and more freedoms get taken away, and the leadership.

Norman Fenton (01:09:38.249)
No, that’s not true about more and more land.

Ahmad (01:09:41.348)
Really? I’ll send you some pictures. You can just Google it right now. Google West.

Norman Fenton (01:09:45.21)
Oh, that’s the level we debunk those ridiculous maps. All this thing, incidentally about that whole thing about the maps of the Jewish land ownership. Every single Jew who you said all about that large scale integration, you know, after the Balfour Declaration of Bridges, every single Jew who came there purchased that land legally, in some cases from Arab land owners. They paid way over the odds for it. It was all done legally. And that’s why I made the analogy between Muslims coming

Ahmad (01:09:48.396)

Norman Fenton (01:10:14.222)
into the UK. There’s no difference, right? If you want to call Jews colonizers, then the Muslims are colonizers. This is bullshit. Yeah, these are all bullshit. Yeah, it’s bullshit. They’re all bullshit, right? Because they’re making a difference. That whole thing about that, that whole thing about Palestinian land, and then they give the tiny little bits of Jewish areas, those that was, almost none of the land was owned by anybody. This is the whole thing. It wasn’t, it wasn’t, it wasn’t owned by

Ahmad (01:10:21.368)
Can you see this picture?

Ahmad (01:10:26.508)
Why is- why is-

Ahmad (01:10:40.46)
So, so, so look at this map over here, 1917. So, no, look, this is a map, right, 1917. These were the.

Norman Fenton (01:10:41.046)
by Muslims it wasn’t owned by Jews, right? This whole thing about that map is a complete myth. I can destroy all that stuff, you know.

Norman Fenton (01:10:52.114)
And so then can we that’s can I suggest that instead of now Talking about the past. I want to there’s a couple of things that we absolutely need to nail on about your rabbi vice interview as well

Ahmad (01:11:00.648)
No, no, we will, we will. No, but then, okay, we will, we will get there. But can I just go, okay, we’ll get there. But let’s look at 1995, okay? The Oslo Accords. And what I’m trying to say is, for a lot of these Palestinians, you know, they didn’t want this. The reason why they’ve turned down the two-state solution is they don’t want this. They want at least this, the 1967 or 1948. But they don’t.

Norman Fenton (01:11:23.138)
got they were given in 2001 the Prime Minister Ehud Barak no this is a fact the Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered them all that stuff offers to take all of the Jews out of those settlements I don’t believe that was the right thing to do but they did they offered them the whole lot Gaza of course which they’ve got anyway now since 2005 they were offered in 2001 they were offered everything Ahmed absolutely all of that stuff everything right they were offered

Ahmad (01:11:40.689)
Wasn’t he the one that was, wasn’t he the one?

Norman Fenton (01:11:53.538)
They even offered to give back parts of Jerusalem, right? Everything. And the whole of the West Bank was gonna be Juden-free. It was gonna be completely Juden-free. It’s appalling, but the Israeli public were prepared to accept it. It was offered in the camp, David accords in 2001, and Arafat rejected it, went back and started the next in the 2001 into Fada, right? So don’t give me that bullshit. And the whole point is that it’s been terrorism ever since. They wouldn’t have the roadblocks.

They wouldn’t have all that stuff if not for the fact that Israel is under daily attack from terrorists, from terrorists, from Palestinian terrorists from all of those areas, right? So if the Arabs stopped with the terrorism, they’d have peace and they’d have their land.

Ahmad (01:12:34.302)
So, what’s the solution?

Ahmad (01:12:38.264)
So, but the Arabs, if you talk to the Arabs, they say we’re occupied, we’re pulled out of our homes in the middle of the night, we’re locked up in jail without any due process, without any court, our water is turned off, our medicine that we get in Gaza, half of it is… So you just think that they’re just all lying.

Norman Fenton (01:12:48.925)
I’ll do the same.

It’s all bullshit! It’s all bo- because it’s propaganda!

It’s all nonsense. It’s all nonsense. No, when Israel gave up Gaza, when Israel took out every single, let’s look at Gaza, right? Israel took out every single citizen from, if it’s citizens or its army, forcibly removed, let’s say 9,000 people, many of whom had only ever lived there, and they’d never lived anywhere else. They were all booted out, all of them removed. And the first thing, what is the… Oh, come on. There’d been Jewish communities in that area many years again before, but forget that. Okay. They took the… Let’s agree.

Ahmad (01:13:00.544)
Could it be?

Ahmad (01:13:15.28)
Some would argue they were settlers.

Ahmad (01:13:23.281)
I, yes.

Norman Fenton (01:13:25.654)
Let’s agree they were settlers, but they took them all out, which was what they were going to do. If only Arafat and his cronies would have agreed in 2000. That’s what they would have done in the West Bank as well. Right? They would have done that. They took them every single every single soldier every single citizen was taken out. They left them these beautiful agricultural areas, all these fantastic greenhouses, they could have had an unbelievably thriving economy could have been the, you know, the Singapore, the Middle East, whatever, they’ve got that incredible Mediterranean coastline.

They took it, they all out. What did they do? They went in straight away, they destroyed all the greenhouses, all the agricultural facilities, and they basically created a terrorist state. Israel, if they had wanted, if they’d have simply, Israel would have given them all the support to build a beautiful homeland there. They would have, if they hadn’t immediately resorted, why did they resort to terrorism immediately? Do you think that those restrictions, the blockade, incidentally the blockade,

Ahmad (01:14:17.228)
So, so, so.

Norman Fenton (01:14:23.394)
simply a naval blockade to stop weapons coming in. Okay, so and this is who supplies them, who’s the one supplied them supplied them with the water electricity. So they decided, they decided that instead of turning Gaza into something which would have been fantastic, right, they wanted to do it. Even without that actually, this whole idea about Gaza prison camp concentration camps, go and have a look, go and have a look at all of the videos

Ahmad (01:14:27.628)
So, so, okay, so.

Norman Fenton (01:14:53.258)
and all those incredibly lavish, beautiful buildings that the Hamas and their parachicks actually had and the beautiful hotels, they had, there was unbelievably beautiful areas of Gaza, right, which then they’d willingly now, you know, destroyed because they’d rather destroy the Jewish state than build something of their own.

Ahmad (01:15:08.472)

Ahmad (01:15:13.844)
Okay, okay, we’re jumping over so many topics here right now. I mean, the impression I get from you, Norman, is there’s nothing the Israeli government has done wrong. They’re whiter than white. They’re the most noble government in the world, and they’ve never done anything wrong. And a lot of people would really struggle with that. And what they see is a…

Norman Fenton (01:15:25.006)
There are plenty of things.

Norman Fenton (01:15:35.814)
I’m not saying that but I’m countering the ridiculous propaganda that you’ve swallowed for the other side. But there’s one thing I know we’ve been on long, I really must, because this is not about, I want to do say it, which is not about Israel. I want to talk about Judaism. I don’t want to talk about Rabbi Weiss, because you allowed him, you’re allowed a forum to him and I want to respond to him. Can I do that? So first of all,

Ahmad (01:15:45.176)
I’m not swallowing, I’m, okay, I’m not swallowing.

Ahmad (01:15:59.064)
Fire away. Go for it.

Norman Fenton (01:16:03.634)
He’s this idea and you put it in your I noticed that you in the description you said that He represents a large body of Jews, but still a minority You know, how large a body of Jews does that jerk actually represent? Right? Less than one in a thousand. There’s about ten Jerks, sorry, I called him a jerk because that’s what he is

Ahmad (01:16:19.564)
So what did you call him? So, no, hold on. What did you call him?

I think that’s a bit unfair.

Norman Fenton (01:16:30.174)
Look, I’ll explain why I think he’s a jerk. Okay. So first of all, he’s from he’s represents he’s a leader

Ahmad (01:16:30.419)
He was, he was a l-

Ahmad (01:16:34.408)
Okay, I’m just saying this, I’m just saying this, because it won’t put you in good light using that word. I’m just saying, it’s not nice to insult other people.

Norman Fenton (01:16:42.546)
Okay, all right, fine. I’m prepared to stand by the fact that I’ve said that Rabbi Weiss is a jerk, right? Now, he represents the Naturi-Karta sect, which I believe has less than… they’ve got something like… there’s 500 Naturi-Karta families in Israel, there’s about 2,000 families in New York, there’s some in… So overall, the number of people who he represents is less than 10,000. There’s another sect, not as extreme as his, which is called Sat Mar.

Ahmad (01:16:50.507)

Norman Fenton (01:17:11.266)
which also is an anti, as I said, but they’re also tiny, right? They represent less than, well under less than one out of every thousand Jews in the world. So let’s get the record straight on how much of the Jewish population they represent, right?

He exposed himself as an unbelievable racist in his, I knew he’s a racist anyway, right, he exposed himself as an unbelievable racist in his interview because he said, well for a start, they regard all the other 99.9% of Jews in the world who are not part of their movement, they regard them as basically subhuman. That’s why they’re quite happy to celebrate the murder of those Jews in terrorist attacks, which they’ve been on the record for.

Ahmad (01:17:52.876)
So hold on, hold on one sec, I spoke to him, I got none of that from him. He said all humans are equal. I said are Jews any more special than anyone else?

Norman Fenton (01:18:04.426)
He doesn’t regard them as Jews. He does not regard them as Jews. He regards, they consider themselves to be the only Jews. And he does, I know I’ve seen those guys work and how they treat other Jews, including Orthodox Jews, and they treat them as, they actually do treat them as scum. They don’t recognize them as real human beings at all, right?

Ahmad (01:18:08.183)

Ahmad (01:18:26.394)
I’ve seen videos of their Jews being beaten up by Israeli cops in the West Bank purely for defending the Palestinians. I don’t see them beating anyone else up.

Norman Fenton (01:18:34.538)
Well, you can come on to that. Okay. Because they support terrorism. Right? Let’s go through. So are you aware?

Ahmad (01:18:41.408)
So you’re, no, you need to stop. No, no, you need to stop there. Listen, look, supporting Palestinians doesn’t mean you support terrorism. Can you agree on that?

Norman Fenton (01:18:51.126)
But those guys do. Those guys support terrorism against the Jewish people. They are supporters. Right. I’ll tell you how much they support terrorism, right? In 2006, they actually attended that Holocaust denial conference in Iran, which was hosted by then President Ahmadinejad with David Dewey, the leader of the Ku Klux Klan, right? In 2018, they met with the Hezbollah leaders in Lebanon and gave a gift to Hassan Nasrallah because they support the aim of…

of wiping out Israel as a Jewish state. As you know, that’s their aim. They believe, but this is the interesting thing. They actually believe Israel should be a Jewish state, but only after the coming of the Messiah. So believe me, those guys will want to kick out all of the Muslims and all of the non-Orthodox Jews once the Messiah comes. They’ll be the first to be doing that. But they’re racist also, because did you hear what he said about they’re the only Jews, he said. His sect are the only Jews.

who are allowed to live in Israel. Did you hear him say that? And they’ve lived there, they’ve settled there. He actually said that because they have a special right to be there. So they’re the only ones, if that’s not racist, you tell me what it is. He said he doesn’t believe in democracy. You heard him say that? He does not believe in democracy.

Ahmad (01:20:00.224)
No, no, no

Norman Fenton (01:20:24.842)
Oh he did, oh he go back to it. He’s.

Ahmad (01:20:27.528)
He said, God said that you need to live in exile and that you cannot form the state of Israel again. That was the, the covenant between the people.

Norman Fenton (01:20:35.126)
Right. And he said that only people who believe that, which is basically only his sex, because no other Jews believe that, only that in fact, Judaism is so completely, is so totally dependent, so well, it’s so intertwined with Zionism. That’s why we say, you know, next year in Jerusalem, that’s why every, every aspect of the Bible is about return to the Jewish state, right? And it doesn’t talk about, there’s nothing in there about needing to wait for the Messiah, nothing about it. That’s their…

Ahmad (01:20:52.888)
But okay, but number one.

Ahmad (01:21:02.58)
But that doesn’t… But listen, I need some clarification here because as far as I know, the Zionist movement has only been going on for 150 years. There was no such thing as Zionism before 150 years ago. So…

Norman Fenton (01:21:12.066)
That’s different.

Norman Fenton (01:21:15.602)
Zionism, that’s what I said, Zionism is simply the belief in the right of the Jews to return to their indigenous homeland. Are you seriously saying that Jews haven’t yearned that ever since they’ve been in exile from the Roman Empire?

Ahmad (01:21:29.317)
So, as far as I understand, there’s religious Zionism, there’s cultural Zionism, and there’s political Zionism. There’s lots of different types of Zionisms. It’s very complicated. But what I’m trying to say is, Judaism lived for a long time without this Zionist political construct that originated 150 years ago with Theodor Herzl.

Norman Fenton (01:21:48.83)
always yearned, we always yearn to return to that, to our indigenous homeland. It’s there, so it’s in every prayer, it’s in every Jewish prayer, is that yearning to return to the Jewish homeland. And there’s nothing in there and therefore that’s, that’s the Zionists, the Judaism is Zionist, it’s found on Zionists, it’s the link to the land, everything is about the link to their indigenous homeland of Israel, everything, that is the Jewish religion, there is nothing else. And he thinks if he wants to say

Ahmad (01:21:56.684)
So what, so, yeah, and so.

Ahmad (01:22:11.449)
So, but…

Norman Fenton (01:22:14.262)
But yeah, it’s he can’t dispute that because they’re not disputing the sort of the Holy Jewish text. But he’s saying his spin is, ah, yeah, but only not until the Messiah comes. Well, ninety nine point nine percent of Jews don’t believe that. And incidentally, this whole thing about most Jews not being Zionists as well. You’re right. There’s another there’s another part. You’ve got these. So you’ve got these anti-Zionist Jews or a tiny fringe. The Orthodox. Oh, he’s something else interesting. He said it’s brilliant. Right.

He, at the start of the interview, you know what he was really stressing about the meaning of this incredible orthodoxy they’ve got due to him? He made a special point of talking about the sanctity of the Sabbath. Right, and do you remember, he actually started to say about you couldn’t do anything, you’re not allowed, Sabbath was the absolute day of rest. You’re not allowed to do anything, you’re not allowed to lie, and then you’re not allowed to watch. Nothing, you’ve got, Sabbath is an unbelievably holy day. He talked about the sanctity of habit.

of Sabbath observance. I can tell you, because I know these guys, I know the ones who live in London and Leeds and Manchester, they come down to these anti-Israel demonstrations, they’re always at the front of the demonstration, right? They come down on Sabbath, right? They hold placards on a Sabbath. They go to these, none of the, all of these things are breaching the sanctity of Sabbath, which is the one thing above all else an Orthodox Jew would not do. No

truly Orthodox Jew would not observe Sabbath and these guys don’t. And that is the most important breach of Orthodox Judaism. And I actually spoke to the guy, the leader of Nuturi Carter, at one of those meetings, right, where he was holding a placard, he was marching, not allowed to do any of that, not allowed to hold anything, not allowed to travel. And I said to him, you’re breaking, why, how, you claim to be ultra-Orthodox, why are you, why are you doing this? Why are you holding the placard?

And he said, this is it. Oh, we’re allowed to do that in this place. That was his response. Oh, that’s your Nataricata. That’s the mentality. That’s why these are jerks. And that’s why I don’t even consider them to be, you know, they, you know, they consider themselves to be Orthodox Jews. They’re not. They’re a tiny fringe maniacal sect who’ve been put up in front. Because, oh, incidentally, one of their members also convicted in 2013 for spying.

Ahmad (01:24:32.824)
Okay, okay, okay.

Norman Fenton (01:24:41.858)
for Iran against Israel. These people, these people are terrorist supporters. They’re funded by Iran. They’re supporters of Hamas, Hezbollah, because their aims are the same. They don’t want any Jews in Israel.

Ahmad (01:24:42.584)
Okay, can I quickly?

Ahmad (01:24:48.364)
So, so, okay.

Ahmad (01:24:53.744)
I, would you not also agree though, okay, would you not also agree that not all Jews are homogenous, just like how all Muslims are not homogenous, this idea that you can paint them, you know. But I’ve met, I don’t know if I’m allowed to name them, but I’ve met several Jews who’ve told me that they’re anti-Zionist and they don’t believe in what the state of Israel is doing. And they’re not, they’re not in this religious sect. You know, I mean, you know.

Norman Fenton (01:24:54.707)
off of themselves.

Norman Fenton (01:25:02.506)
Absolutely. That’s why there’s lots of different

Norman Fenton (01:25:15.894)
Yeah, yeah, they’re all.

Norman Fenton (01:25:21.43)
Yeah, I wanted I was going to come on to those wasn’t I was going to tell you about those. I would say

Ahmad (01:25:24.052)
the invest, hold on one second, you know, take for example, I think I can definitely mention him because he’s public, but you know, Dan Cohen, the investigative journalist, he’s Jewish and you know, some people would say Zionists are propagandists, everyone’s a propagandist for their cause. You know, you’ve got, you’ve got

Norman Fenton (01:25:32.17)
Yeah, he’s an anti-Sinist. He’s a propagandist, anti-Sinist.

Norman Fenton (01:25:42.458)
But he is a propagandist as our I can name you Max Blumenthal. I can name you Norman Finkelstein Michael Pellet, Ilan Pat. There’s loads of them and you know what they disproportionately represented they act as a buffer. That’s the security buffer. People can quote them as Jews.

Ahmad (01:25:50.804)
Yeah, and they’re, and I know, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on one second. Their families were involved in the Holocaust and what they’re saying is, we don’t accept what’s going on here because we’ve become, from being the abused, we are now the abuser. And you know, it’s wrong and they’re calling, and they’re calling out the wrong, yeah, it’s their view, but you know, you can’t say they’re,

Norman Fenton (01:26:13.065)
That’s their view.

Ahmad (01:26:18.956)
propagandists, they can turn around and say, you’re a propagandist, you’re basically saying every… But I’m just saying it’s interesting to hear that there’s more than one view.

Norman Fenton (01:26:22.486)
Yeah, they can. I’m fine.

Norman Fenton (01:26:29.346)
Yeah, the difference is that those guys are held up by a lot of the mainstream media, a lot of the Israel haters, they’re held up as being representative somehow of Jews, right? Their influence is massively exaggerated, right? These are not representative of Jews. Again, there are indeed, I would say about 5% of Jews, I forget about the idiots in the Tariqata, 5% of Jews are indeed hardcore anti-Zionists.

5% and yet people have a massively inflated sense of that proportion because exactly those guys who are not particularly intelligent most of them, right, not particularly good academics, right, but get to very high academic positions, get enormous publicity, get invited to all these conferences because they’re anti-Zionist Jews. It’s because of it. That’s why. And then they can act because

Ahmad (01:27:12.343)

Norman Fenton (01:27:26.422)
then people who are not anti-Semitic, right, even people who don’t particularly hate Israel, they can say, look, I don’t like what Israel is doing, and I’m not anti-Semitic because these guys are saying it. And that’s a buffer, that buffers them against accusations of anti-Semitism, even for those who are anti-Semitic. So there are plenty of anti-Semites out there, genuine ones, who say, I can’t be anti-Semitic about this because I’m simply agreeing with…

You know, with Max Blumenthal, with Dan Cohen, all these guys, they’re saying it.

Ahmad (01:27:54.936)
Do you know what? I hate, I’ll be honest with you, I hate the word anti-Semitic. Semitic also includes the Palestinian people, so it’s just a bit weird word to use. And, well, there are…

Norman Fenton (01:28:04.266)
Well, no, that’s, that’s no, but anti-Semitism is specifically about Jews, right? It’s different from talking about people, Semitic people. Yeah, but that’s different. Yeah.

Ahmad (01:28:10.668)
I know, but semites, I know, but the word, the word is now like used as conspiracy theories. You know, you just, if you want to taint someone, destroy the character, you throw that label at them. And now it’s, you know, I just think it’s, it’s just dangerous. Nowadays, everything, if you’re controversial, you’re just antisemitic. It’s just getting ridiculous. But anyway, look, what I want to talk about is, what we can agree with, right, is that all innocent deaths are wrong.

Okay, I think I don’t trust any government. I don’t trust any politician and all innocent deaths are wrong. And right now what I’m seeing is a lot of deaths are happening in Gaza and the Palestine or in West Bank for some strange reason. And you know, what people don’t talk about is that something like 45 children died in the West Bank to Israeli forces before 7th of October. Did you know that? And you know, and when they talk about 40 decapitated

Norman Fenton (01:29:05.57)
You know they classify 15 and 16 year old and up to 19 year old terrorists as children. People have actually, a lot of those actually were in the act of committing terrorist attacks. So again, you’re just falling for the propaganda. Just falling for it. No, no, I’m sorry.

Ahmad (01:29:18.736)
No, no, listen, seriously, so you think a 15, you think a 15, 16 year old kid who might be throwing a stone deserves to be shot?

Norman Fenton (01:29:28.99)
No, the knife. Do you know that in 2000, I’ll tell you something about this. In 2000 in I think it was

Ahmad (01:29:32.808)
No, no, but no, listen, no, you just, you just said something that’s just shocking. Norman, in this country, yeah.

Norman Fenton (01:29:38.858)
No, with knives. You know that Israeli forces are not allowed to shoot Palestinian teenagers who are coming at them with knives. You know, they’re not allowed to shoot. This was introduced these new rules of engagement. It led to several deaths of civilians in Israel because of that ruling. You know that the, just trying to think of the name of the, Gaddi Eisenkopf, the chief of staff in 2018, do you know what he said? Do you know what he said? He said,

Ahmad (01:30:02.36)
I have seen… Listen, listen, listen!


Norman Fenton (01:30:08.662)
He would rather see dead Palestinians, he would rather see dead Israeli soldiers and dead Palestinian civilians, right? He’s in the, he’s part of the government now. Now I don’t, I don’t agree with that, right? But obviously plenty of people did. And that, that you’ve got to understand, that is a, there are rules of engagement, again, which no other country in the world, other than the kind of constant terrorist threat that Israel faced, which would have that. Gaddi Eisenkopf, Gaddi Eisenkopf. He was the Israeli chief of staff. It caused a lot of upset in Israel because

Ahmad (01:30:28.921)
What’s his name? So what was his name? Right, send me his details.

Norman Fenton (01:30:38.154)
Because Israeli civilians and soldiers died as a result of his new rules of engagement, which stopped them, stopped them. Yeah. But now, now they are.

Ahmad (01:30:43.388)
Okay, so all the, listen, all the videos I’ve seen, all the videos I’ve seen are kids on the street, there’s no soldier anywhere near them, they’re throwing stones and then bang, shot on the ground dead.

Norman Fenton (01:30:56.994)
and they’re not being shot. None of those are being shot, none of them. There is no evidence, give me any evidence, there is no evidence anywhere of Israelis deliberately killing Palestinian civilians. Contrary to the deliberate killing of 1,400 Jewish civilians by Hamas, they die because they’re either in the line of fire put there by Hamas or the terrorists, or they’re committing terrorist attacks, but mostly they’re dying because they’re human shields of Hamas.

Ahmad (01:31:00.268)
So what’s killing them?

Ahmad (01:31:09.278)
Okay, I’ll send you some

Ahmad (01:31:19.564)
So, so, so Norm, okay, Norm, there’s a lot, I really need to debunk this. So there’s a lot of things coming out in the wash now. One, there were no 40 dead babies. You know that? There’s no evidence.

Norman Fenton (01:31:34.926)
How many dead babies do you want? That is complete, right. No, I’m not having this. I’ll stop, if you’re gonna now deny, how many dead babies do you want? There’s, we know, I’ve seen the evidence of decapitated, of a dick. Right.

Ahmad (01:31:37.216)
Wait… wait… slow down! No s- No!

Ahmad (01:31:51.308)
I don’t want any dead babies. No dead babies or, you know, just no number. Oh my goodness. No, I’m not.

Norman Fenton (01:31:53.186)
So don’t give me, don’t give me, you’re now into the stage, you are now into the denial, you are now into the denial. How many was acceptable? How many rapes were acceptable? Was one acceptable? Right, how many, how many of these? How many dead babies do you want? Was 40 not, you’re saying 40, there wasn’t 40, was, A, we documented the number of children, it’s well over 40 the number of children who are massacred, right, and massacred in the most disgusting way, right? Right?

Ahmad (01:32:04.293)
None. Can you?

Norman Fenton (01:32:22.334)
whether the number of how do you classify baby right? How many but how many you know, how many is it that so if it had been 10 it’s okay. Right? There’s 10 babies is fine. 10 babies massacred shot in the head shot in the head. That’s fine if it was only 10 right?

Ahmad (01:32:34.105)
Okay, Norman, can you hear me out? Can you please hear my full thread and then you’ll see where I’m going with this. Okay, just trust me. So what I’m trying to say is, it’s now coming out, it’s coming out from the Israeli side that actually a lot of the deaths were crossfire, Apache helicopters shooting first, and no,

Norman Fenton (01:32:54.666)
No, no, you’re getting absolutely not. That’s fucking bullshit. I’m sorry, if you’re gonna give that bullshit, that’s been debunked, right? And there’s that video, that ridiculous video, the guy with those claims, and it’s all based on completely non tiny quotes from people who weren’t even there in most cases, taken out of context, right? That is it’s such complete nonsense. There is that you’re comparing that against the hundreds, hundreds of testaments of people were there.

Ahmad (01:33:16.852)
Okay, forget all that. Okay, okay, okay.

Norman Fenton (01:33:24.598)
the actual documentation from Hamas themselves, right? It didn’t happen, right? There were a few crossfire deaths, yeah. Absolute nonsense.

Ahmad (01:33:24.599)

Ahmad (01:33:28.48)
Can I finish what I want to say? Can I finish what I’m saying? Can you just please just hear me out? Please hear me out. So what I’m trying to say is, Israel is saying, look, they’ve taken our hostages. Look, and you know what? We deserve to do something because they killed us. The Hamas used us as shields. Like, I don’t agree with that. I know hundreds and hundreds of Israelis died and it’s wrong, right? There’s no doubt about that.

It was not right. You do not kill innocent civilians, children, women, everything. 100%. Look, we are in agreement for God’s sake. Now those deaths are happened. Now if they’ve taken hostages to Gaza, okay, they’ve taken them now. Right. Now you don’t have to go straight in and start killing and bombing all the civilians there and say, well, they’ve got human shields and they’ve got… It’s like saying, I’ll give an example. A gun shooter.

comes in and starts killing all your family and you wanna get him and he runs into a school and you go, right, well, he’s in the school and it doesn’t matter, we’re gonna blow up the whole school. It’s, you know, he’s using them as shields but it doesn’t matter, we’re gonna kill him. There’s no urgency now. The damage has been done. What you need to do is slowly but surely use your intelligence, find out Hamas, rescue the hostages, negotiate with them, kill them, whatever, but you don’t go and start bombing civilian areas.

depriving them of water and electricity. And now, you know, I’m telling you, you should see some of the videos and images. There are babies being blown to smithereens. Now what I’m trying to say is those people dying in Gaza are just as much victims and as innocent as the ones that died in Israel. And two wrongs, now listen, and two wrongs don’t make a right. And the…

Norman Fenton (01:35:14.646)
Yeah, they’re victims of the mass because none of them, none of them, none of them needs to be in those areas.

Norman Fenton (01:35:23.166)
What do you think? Okay, I agree with you. I actually don’t believe that there’s a strategy. Well, I don’t believe the strategy is right. Because actually, if not for the globalists, going back to that, who basically pumped and it is the globalists, as I said, who’ve ensured that Hamas has remained in power, has built up their strength, blah, blah. It’s the globalists out there who’ve done that. You know, it was it was not just from Qatar, millions from the

Ahmad (01:35:27.808)
It’s disproportionate.

Norman Fenton (01:35:52.098)
from the EU and the UK sent straight to, which goes to the supposed Palestinians and Gaza, goes of course straight to Hamas because they controlled all that money. If not for all of that, right? Of course, Hamas wouldn’t be in power. So you’ve got that globalist angle, right? In which case, there is a way to solve it completely peacefully. It requires the United Nations because it’s never gonna happen because it’s institutionally anti-Israel because of the number of member states who are institutionally, don’t even recognize the state of Israel.

Ahmad (01:36:01.812)
the leadership.

Norman Fenton (01:36:22.77)
it would require the United States, certainly at least, certainly even if even the United States, even if the United States and all the western powers simply said, no more funding to Hamas, absolutely nothing, and no more funding to the Palestinians, right, in Gaza because it’s going to go to Hamas, unless Hamas gives up the hostages and gives up their power in Gaza. If they don’t give up their power, this is all going to happen again anyway,

So they actually have to give up all their power and they have to be subjected to war. Those guys who did it, war crimes, tribunals as well. Then there’ll be no loss of life. And that’s the way to do it. But unfortunately, coming out of the review, the globalists don’t want that to happen. They want there to be this conflict. Oops.

Ahmad (01:37:08.92)
They want, they always want there to be conflict. So look, there’s two elements to this. One, there are some who might argue that Israel will never have peace because all the Arab countries wanna kill them and destroy Israel. There’s other people who would argue, actually no, not really. All the Arab states just wanna live with a nice friendly neighbor and they envisage Israel as a bully.

And they think, actually, when you stop America pumping billions of arms to Israel and making them a bully in the neighborhood, maybe we could get on well. Maybe we could all cooperate. I’m just saying this, you know, for every side of the story, there’s another opinion, a differing opinion. So, you know, a lot of people look at Israel as a victim. Many see it as a bully. They go look at the most technologically armed, sophisticated, nuclear power, the only nuclear power in the block.

know, what the hell? They’re the ones bombing the crap out of everyone else. You know, they, if they wanted peace, they could have peace. They don’t want peace though. They want to live in this conflict state of, um, terror and arm because that’s how they, that’s how they get.

Norman Fenton (01:38:10.37)
I went, no, well, no, none of these conflicts have ever, none of these conflicts have ever been initiated. I mean, these conflicts were always initiated by missiles being fired. It’s always this case. You know, Hamas, not only did they do the massacre on October the 7th.

Ahmad (01:38:15.5)
But it empowers.

Ahmad (01:38:26.211)
That’s what you say, but if you ask a Syrian or Lebanese, they will say the opposite. So this is what I’m saying. There’s two sides of the story. Now, I suggested to you, I was like, you talked about 2 million Arabs in Israel. Why can’t there just be a united republic of Israel and Palestine, where everybody just lives in peace and happiness? Everyone has equal rights, everyone has equal, and no, hold on, hold me up. Everyone has.

Norman Fenton (01:38:46.802)
Because we know that if Israel was under anything other than Jewish control, the Jews would be massacred. They would be. Because that’s what Hamas wants.

Ahmad (01:38:54.732)
But it wouldn’t be under Jewish and just someone else’s control. Jews would be in power. It would be Jews and Arabs and Christians and whatever. You would all live together in a republic, decentralized, because I think decentralized.

Norman Fenton (01:39:08.962)
Yeah, come by, let’s all sing come by. Yeah, yeah in that region. Yeah Like like the Arabs haven’t got enough lands that they can’t we can’t afford this tiny sliver of land You know to have our independence. I mean, this is what it all comes down to. Yeah over that, yeah

Ahmad (01:39:13.172)
Why not?

Ahmad (01:39:19.34)
We’ve gone, we’ve gone, we’ve gone, it all comes, and it all comes back to, it all comes back to seeing Arabs as all homogenous. They’re not. An Iraqi Arab doesn’t want to live in Egypt. That’s not their, that’s not their homeland. That’s not their ancestral land. Iraqi Arabs look different from Egyptians. They’re Egyptians. This Arab thing is a new thing where they’ve all been taken over with the Arab language, but they’re fundamentally different peoples. They’re, the Lebanese, the Lib,

Norman Fenton (01:39:40.278)

Norman Fenton (01:39:45.341)
I agree with you.

Ahmad (01:39:47.36)
So just saying, oh, they’ve got plenty of land. What? That’s ridiculous. Like, oh, why don’t you just kick out all the New Zealanders and give it back to the Māoris? All the New Zealanders can go to Canada. Look how big Canada is. All these New Zealanders can go to Canada. It’s like, no, that’s their home. And just…

Norman Fenton (01:39:54.023)
Not when it

Norman Fenton (01:40:01.298)
I didn’t say that. But you’re right, you know, the Arabs in Gaza, they’re completely different to the Arabs in Judea and Samaria in the West Bank, you know that as well. They’re completely different ethically, right? And culture and their language is different, right? And yet, apparently, this is another weird thing, apparently, they want this independent, you know, state of Palestine, even though as you say, they’re completely different. And it’s interesting that

Ahmad (01:40:15.532)
This, cause this, just like.

Ahmad (01:40:27.896)
So this is what, so what I’m saying is, what’s wrong with this United Republic of Israel and Palestine? You’re where they live in peace and harmony and love.

Norman Fenton (01:40:36.25)
already Israel’s already Israel’s already got Israel’s already Israel is already has that with the all of its citizens being all of its citizens have an equal right it’s already there so what else what are you suggesting that they suddenly move what are you suggesting they suddenly all move back in that they do all come back then why don’t you okay then let’s turf the Jews of Iraq back to Baghdad shall we I mean what is that are you proposing

Ahmad (01:40:48.44)
But not the occupied territories.

Ahmad (01:41:01.068)
I, you didn’t, I, I never said that. So for example, take for example, Native Americans, should we tell all Americans to leave and go back to their original countries? Of course not, it’s ridiculous. They’re there now, it’s a fact. Israelis are there, you can’t just tell all these Israelis to get lost, so I never said that, Norman. No, but what I’m saying is, here, then, okay, well, I’m not. So listen, where the, where the, look, do you?

Norman Fenton (01:41:16.886)
Right, exactly.

Norman Fenton (01:41:20.834)
Good because a lot in the freedom movement are saying if you… Yeah, yeah. I know, I know you’re not.

Ahmad (01:41:29.132)
Do you agree there’s such a thing as occupied territories? Are you gonna say that’s a myth?

Norman Fenton (01:41:33.718)
They disputed their disputed territories. Let’s put it like that. That’s what they officially always were on the UN. But again, it’s all about language. You know, the Palestinian, you know, the Palestinian National Movement wasn’t created until 1964 by the Russians with the KGB. So it’s all language, isn’t it? The apartheid. It’s also created by the Russians. It was all, you know, again, it’s the globalist thing. They’ve always, you know, it’s, I agree, but there’s, you know, that it’s always coming from some other, you know, people with other

Ahmad (01:41:36.725)

Ahmad (01:41:40.512)
So that, so, so now, now I, now, now I’m gonna disagree.

Norman Fenton (01:42:03.922)
in many cases the globalist intentions who did want to create conflict. You know, the Russians, you know, somehow, you know, didn’t like the fact that in 1967, you know, their technology, their arm, which they thought was far superior to what Israel had and what the Americans were supplying. And they never forgave Israel for defeating the Arab armies in the Six Day War. So, you know, but so all these things, you know, but…

Ahmad (01:42:25.592)
Okay, okay, okay. Anyway, listen, I need to wrap up. I forgot something, I’ve got something to do at one o’clock. We’ve only got a few minutes. Listen, we need to wrap. So I want to have a positive note. What do you think is the best solution for Israel and Palestine? If it’s not my suggestion, I thought my suggestion was a good one, but anyway. Well, what do you recommend?

Norman Fenton (01:42:30.327)

Norman Fenton (01:42:48.586)
I used to believe in two state solution, as did many. I mean, I come from them. I was a man of the left myself. So I was all for this sort of piece now, blah, and all that. I’m now a realist. And I think that the best that we can hope for is that the Palestinians will eventually agree that there has to be a Jewish state. And they will actually be that they

Ahmad (01:42:59.118)
And now…

Norman Fenton (01:43:18.586)
in the areas where they already are self-governing, Gaza and very, very large parts of West Bank, down in Samaria, they will simply be able to, what they’re doing now, they’re living under the Hamas in Gaza, so they need to have a proper free movement there.

Ahmad (01:43:31.654)
So that’s the…

Ahmad (01:43:36.044)
So that is a two-state, that is a two-state. So that is a two-state. Or do you think?

Norman Fenton (01:43:41.334)
It’s a kind of, it is a kind of a two state solution, but not the one that was maybe envisaged in 2001 under the Camp David Accords. I used to believe in that. I don’t anymore.

Ahmad (01:43:44.76)
Kinda, so…

Ahmad (01:43:50.484)
So, but they can’t have an army or an air force. They can’t have independence, the control of their borders, internal, external.

Norman Fenton (01:43:58.778)
Oh, if after 40 years of not trying to kill the Jews of Israel, they then fine, then absolutely. But you can’t expect Israel to live with people who are committed to their destruction, having… We’ve seen what happens in Gaza.

Ahmad (01:44:07.448)
Do you think, do you think, do you think? But.

Oh, when, so do you know there’s lots of videos going around? Do you know there’s lots of videos going on right now in Israel where they’re locking up Palestinians, mocking them, playing this child children’s music, saying the best Palestinians are dead Palestinian, deaf to all Palestinians. You know, it goes both ways. And, you know, what I’m trying to say is, what, listen, what,

Norman Fenton (01:44:36.323)
You can find that sort of thing. Compared to the amount, if you want to do that, for every one of those, there’s 10,000 Muslim videos saying death to the Jews. So what? Big deal. What does it matter?

Ahmad (01:44:48.308)
Okay, so what I’m trying to say is when you’ve got a people who are occupied, because that’s what they are and they do not have their freedoms, what do occupied people tend to do? They tend to resist and fight.

Norman Fenton (01:44:59.124)
They’re only occupied because they want to kill Jews. That’s the only reason. They’re living. I mean, again, they had the opportunity in Gaza. What did they do with it? They had the opportunity. Go to places like the in Rome, run by the Palestinian Authority. The Palestinian Authority are suppressing and imprisoning their own people, right?

Ahmad (01:45:18.348)
Can I, I would just say, have a listen to, you know how you listen to the Rabbi David Weiss podcast? Please listen to the, okay, okay.

Norman Fenton (01:45:26.718)
Yeah, it’s the worst, it’s the most ridiculous, most wasted hour and a half I think I’ve ever spent in my life.

Ahmad (01:45:32.712)
Okay, okay, listen to the Ava Bartlett podcast. Ava Bartlett, please have a listen to that and come back to me. Listen to someone who lived in the occupied territories and tell me what you think. I’d really, really value your opinion. Listen, Ava Bartlett, it was done just a few episodes ago. All right, my friend, I really need to go. Thank you so much. God bless you. Okay, bye-bye, bye-bye. You look very smart.

Norman Fenton (01:45:41.41)
Yeah, okay.

Norman Fenton (01:45:49.29)

Norman Fenton (01:45:58.327)
Alright, thanks, yeah, bye.