Nick Hudson On Covid And The State of The World

Nick Hudson is chairman of PANDA.

PANDA was established in April 2020 by a group of multidisciplinary professionals, who perceived the global reaction to Covid – from lockdowns to mandates – as overwrought and damaging to the point of causing a great tear in the fabric of society. PANDA is a politically and economically independent organisation that has sought to develop broad rational explanations and test them against international data, while informing the public and media.

Nick is an actuary with broad international experience in finance, who has settled into a career as a private equity investor.

Nick is a man of wide-ranging interests—an avid reader of canonical literature, a classical music aficionado, and an enthusiastic amateur ornithologist. He has been invited to speak on various topics including epistemology, corporate governance, investment management, and more recently, the pandemic.

I hope you do too and enjoy the conversation.

Ahmad (00:01.818)
It’s recording now, but it’s not live, Nick. It’s not live. So, um, yeah, it’s really weird. It’s, um, I, you know, we met that one time, like you said, the Panda and, um, Sean Flanagan, our mutual friend who I loved dearly, my brother from another mother. Um, he was hanging, hanging out all this built on, so I couldn’t refuse. Um, I didn’t talk to you that much. You, you had this crowd of people flocked around you listening to every word you had to say.

And I know why, you know, I feel like I know you. I’ve seen so many videos of you now and you’re so eloquent. You’re so articulate and you just nail it. You just, you call it out for what it is. You call it all the bullshit and all the problems and this kind of like really blunt, sophisticated South African matter. I was like, I need to get him on my show. So. It’s good to be here.

Yeah, I don’t want to go through the past and people can look up on the website, on my website will be links to Pandeta and everything. But you know, you’ve been one of the warriors right early on. You know, I’m late to the party. A lot of people even to this day are like, who’s this dog Malik guy? You know, I admit I’m late to the party, but you weren’t. And I don’t want to go into that too much unless you want to. I want to hear what you have to say now. What do you?

want to say about the world that we’re in, this clown world? Well, it’s very interesting that you raised that question about being early to the party, because for the first time, I guess, in the entire three and a half years, or whatever it’s been, I have begun thinking about that a bit, because I’ve been looking at sort of some questions which now come down to a fairly difficult point, where you need to answer

to complex problems and so on. And it struck me the other day that it would be a good idea to see if we couldn’t get a conversation going among the people who were there calling this out in February and March and April of 2020. And just to see whether whatever qualities or features of personality those people had that enabled them to

Ahmad (02:20.854)
perceive that we were dealing with a scam back then, might just also be the qualities that help us to wrestle with some of these complex problems. And so I’m intending actually to first of all remind myself who all those people were, because with the passing of time you get a bit confused. You know, who was it when I first crept onto Twitter with zero followers, who was it to who I found?

And it’s been quite an interesting exercise. I asked my Twitter followers to help me, and in the process was reminded of a whole lot of people that I’d sort of forgotten about. So that’s a little bit of an initiative that’s underway right now, because I find that we’re now at some complex things where politics and sociology and personality and crime intersect with science and medicine.

And that’s challenging. It’s funny you should say that because I keep saying to everybody, everything’s linked, you know, everything that we see today is linked. And although up here in my banner, it says Doc Malik, honest health. Here we are talking about things not a hundred percent directly related to health, but ultimately politics affects health, policy affects health, economics, material wealth and income and living standards affects your health. Everything affects your health and everything we see to get in the world.

today, I think is linked. And there’s a multitude, there’s a epidemic of scams going on. Yeah. That’s a good way of putting it. The first time I started feeling comfortable voicing the opinion, because if you have to be so careful what you said in 2020. Still do. Yeah, I think it was October 2020, I wrote an article called 20 Lies. Oh.

And I just called it out from top to bottom. You know, I just said, it’s all nonsense, you know, asymptomatic transmission, the masks, the lockdown efficacy. And listed out 20 different things that were just completely false about this. And you’re not even a doctor. And you had the confidence to say, this is OBS. Well, I guess it was because from fairly early on, I realized that it wasn’t a medical problem we were dealing with. And I’ve always found it rather strange that to this day, people in the dissident movement.

Ahmad (04:45.99)
organize conferences and invite only doctors. Yeah. I would organize conferences and invite political scientists, you know, because this is not a medical problem. And it’s part, it’s almost feeding the narrative. Amen. To keep on obsessing around the epidemiology and the clinical properties of this or that and the next thing, or the spikeopathy or the ivermectin and so on. This is just not where we should be having our conversation.

And when I walked into the room here with you, you correctly started talking about central bankers. Yeah, I mean, obviously, definitely they’re part of the problem. And it’s one aspect of this thing that needs to be understood and explored. I mean, and not just the central bankers, the Bretton Woods organizations had their hand in this and it’s a big and heavy hand. So the money world definitely is part of the story that we need to be discussing. Absolutely, because…

I don’t know if you, you don’t, you don’t know my views on things because I’m just a little minnow compared to you, but basically my views are, I don’t really care. Virus, no virus. I don’t care lab or not. All I know is whatever it was, it wasn’t a lethal pandemic. I don’t think you can even have a lethal pandemic because if it’s a virus that’s deadly, it’s going to burn out. If it’s not deadly.

transmit everywhere. Well, it’s not a deadly pandemic. So there’s no such thing as a pandemic. So they agree with you pandemic is a nonsense construct. It’s a nonsense. It’s an industry. Okay. It’s just a fake false scam industry that’s been created. So that’s one of my opinions, my friend. I’m filling you in. So where I am on things. So that’s one of my opinions. And one of my opinions as well, then don’t, don’t talk about early treatment and this and that.

You know, there’s an organization that has this thing called Battle of Ideas. And I’ll tell you one thing, there’s no battle for ideas. What they do is they construct this narrow frame in which you can have this ferocious discussion. But they miss out the arguments here and the arguments there. Yeah, the Overton Window stuff. So they have a very compressed Overton Window. Yeah. The permitted, the gated institutional narrative you’re allowed to talk within.

Ahmad (06:57.058)
as bounds. Absolutely. So it gives you this impression that you’ve got this amazing discussion and free speech. It’s all bollocks. And, and, and to me, I don’t care if it’s controlled opposition or not, but really it’s bikini opposition. It’s not what is revealed. It’s what’s concealed and it’s the stuff that they won’t talk about. So I don’t care about early treatment and all we should have done this and all we should have done this.

and you know, and having what we should do next time. And yeah, what should we do? No, there is no next time. Get this right. You know, bingo. Thank you. Oh, you know, next time the pandemic. No, don’t mention pandemic. You’re, you’re basically legitimizing it or, or a leaked lab. Oh, you know, we shouldn’t have these labs and the whole thing is BS. Don’t give it a legit,

Ahmad (07:55.15)
to the conventional understanding of terms. What is a vaccine? What is a pandemic? And it also includes stopping to use these words that have been kind of injected as constructs that are nonsense words. My favorite example of that is left and right in politics. I think that’s a nonsense construct. I say to people, let’s be clear on what we’re talking about. Are you…

In favor of liberal values or are you authoritarian? Answer that question first. And what do you believe with respect to the desirable pace of change, which defines you as a conservative or a revolutionary? So I’ll have those two dichotomies. That’ll very clearly lead me to an understanding of how you think about the world. And I happen to be a conservative liberal. I’m in favor of human agency and civil liberties and human rights and freedom.

And I’m a conservative. I believe that it’s very foolish to make rapid changes to complex systems. Well, I’ll go along with that. I’ll also say, let’s add an individualism versus collectivism. Yes, that’s, that’s also part of the sort of the liberal construct because collectivism has to be expressed through some form of authoritarian construct. And so if you’re a collectivist, you, you’re necessarily also an authoritarian.

But you know what’s really worrying is that there’s a lot of people who identify themselves as liberals and anything but. That’s why you have to call them out. You have to you have to recover the meaning of the term. This is like also a man is a man. A man is a man. And we must stop talking about whether people can identify as X and remind people that nobody on this earth has the power to know what it is like to be something they are not. And that’s the first assumption.

underlying the whole trans nonsense. The moment somebody gets up and says, I identify as a woman, well, if they’re a man, they’ve already made the outrageous step of saying that they know what it is like to be a woman. That’s a quite sexist thing. It’s false, it’s sexist, and it’s nonsense. The person’s got cognitive derangement. It’s not a identity problem, it’s a derangement problem. It’s a mental health problem. So the funny thing is, just stating that obvious,

Ahmad (10:19.65)
gets you into trouble now. You know, if I was a kid back in the 1980s in my class and I said, miss, a man is a man and a girl is a girl. She’d be like, yeah, well done. You know, you’re staying the goddamn bloody obvious. Do you expect a prize for that? Now if you say it’s like shock horror, you know, and you’re either applauded or vilified. How have we got here? And I think all of this is about inversion of truth, changing of the words of the meanings.

of things and it’s a deliberate thing, keeping the population confused, not having a solid foundation on which to think. Because if you change the words and muddy the waters, how can you have a solid construct in your head and mind? How can you formulate ideas? Because ideas come from words. Yeah. You know, philosophically, I’m what’s called a realist. I believe that the…

the chief moral virtue is correspondence with reality. And the reason realists say something like that is because they also believe in moral realism, that moral systems are complex and none of us are possessed of perfect information and more perfect knowledge. So we don’t know what is necessarily right or wrong in every given situation, but there is a, a moral realist believes that there is a right or wrong behind that, in the same way that there is a physical reality to the universe.

So as a realist, you say what you should be aiming to do is to correspond with reality, including moral reality. And that notion of having an obligation to correspond with reality has gone out the window. People do not feel that there is an underlying truth that we all should be striving towards.

identify something called a personal truth. My, you know, it’s also fantastically narcissistic and immature. Yeah. That’s the prevailing sentiment of our times. Because people often say to me like, but how do you know what the truth is? And it’s like, oh, don’t say there’s hard objective truth. Like, you know, it’s dark now. That’s the truth. And this whole idea of my truth, my feelings.

Ahmad (12:43.774)
You know, it’s not that’s not reality. And, you know, in the sense that, you know, OK, I, I respect your feelings and I respect how you feel about things. But feelings don’t trump facts. And I think now we’ve got to got to a stage where feelings are now more important than facts in society, and that’s worrying. Because how do you measure what’s more important, whose feelings are more important? Exactly. And it the objection to that from

people of this ilk, is that, but who’s to say what the truth is? Yeah, I hear that. And I say all the time, yeah, none of us are possessed of the truth. It’s ridiculous to claim that you know everything there is to know and can explain everything in the world. But…

And we also know that all our, even our very best explanations of how things work are destined to be replaced by better ones. Yeah, that’s science. We’ve had wonderful examples of that throughout history. Newtonian mechanics came along and, well, Newton brought it along, and for hundreds of years, bridges were built and didn’t fall down, and all sorts of machinery was developed using Newtonian mechanics and so on. So it worked. It was obviously true.

until Einstein came along and showed that it was entirely false. Now, it’s still used because it was asymptotically in the right direction. In most settings, you’re not going to go wrong pulling out your Newtonian mechanics and doing your calculations as if Einstein had never existed. But it still has that explanation that Newton advanced was replaced by a better one. And that will happen to the Einstein.

Einstein’s theories as well. They will be replaced by better ones. And so that’s true for all of us. We never, we approach the truth by degrees. We never quite attain it. But we can reject the bad ideas because we see in the world around us instances of disaster or bad outcomes when certain explanations are tried and found wanting. And it’s that kind of engagement with reality that is…

Ahmad (15:00.506)
so sorely missing and yeah, the world people get lost in this world of feelings. 100%. I’m just trying to think what made you kind of immune to this BS. I think you’re in, correct me if I’m wrong, actuarial kind of science. Yeah, by qualification, not by occupation, I’m an actuary. Okay. So that’s all about statistics and hard data objective. Yes, but if you want a profession, you know, the actuarial profession was not immune.

They’re very high percentage of the actuaries went along with the craziness. So I don’t think it’s that. So then is it some kind of higher moral grounding? Is it some faith that drove you? I mean, I’ve always been thinking about this. What makes certain people more immune to the propaganda, the brainwashing, the hive mind than others? I’ve done a little bit of introspection on that. I kind of, one of the things that I think might have been a factor is that as a, as a youngster, I moved around quite a lot.

By the time I went to university, I’d been to 10 schools in interesting, three different cities in South Africa and three different cities in America. And I carried on being quite mobile, my career has taken me you know, to many places. I’m now settled and stable in Cape Town and have been for about eight years now. But that mobile childhood

What happens is you take an eight-year-old or ten-year-old and rip them out of a certain environment and deposit them into a new one, and they begin to notice immediately that things are done a little differently here. And things that they’d always assumed to be just true or part of how things are done, now all of a sudden you see that they’re done differently. You sometimes ask the question, why do you do it that way? And with children, they will greet you.

with a blank stare when you ask that question because they’ve never seen it done any other way. It’s never occurred to them that there’s a different way of doing it. And so I had this idea that you’ve sort of just got to be alive to the extent to which people are blind to their assumptions.

Ahmad (17:13.47)
And it gave me a sort of innate skepticism. Everybody says to me, this is the way it’s done or this is how it should be done. I kind of like think, well, hmm. How many times during the last three years I’ve been told this little line or a sentence that starts with the words, we know that. You know, I thought I had it bad as a kid. So I moved four schools and I moved home, yeah, four or five times. And it was very disruptive.

And being from a working class background, an immigrant background, I never felt like I fit in anywhere. I always felt disjointed and I never felt ever part of a clique. A slight sense of alienation. Yeah, I always felt a little bit odd. I understand that. I understand that. I mean, it’s played out for me so often in the domain of the, you know,

conversation about the background events and culture. So having traveled around and moved around, I long ago lost the connection with local sports anyway. And I appreciate the institution. I sort of see it performing a valuable social function. I get it. But try as I may, I cannot go through more than five minutes of conversation about the local sports team or whatever without beginning to yawn. And I think people detect that and then they look at you and, well, this guy’s a little odd.

He’s a bit strange. So I’ve gone through my whole life kind of with that vibe. Do you also feel like there’s a lot of people who want to belong to a tribe and a clique, but you never felt the need? I didn’t ever feel. I gave, I just gave up. I was quite happy being different and liked being me. I didn’t want to become part of something that I wasn’t just to be popular or belong to a group. I was quite happy just being myself and being different.

going my own path. Interesting question. I kind of have a very strong intellectual appreciation for community. Yes, of course. And I guess that overlaps with the concepts you’re throwing around here like tribe and clique and team and so on. I want to go to the positive word, community. Yes. Because I think one of the things that has gone missing in this increasingly centralized world is that notion of community.

Ahmad (19:41.09)
And we are social animals and we do best working in decentralized structures, small groups, small communities. You have not only the ability to be a participant, to have a meaningful existence and to participate purposefully in the activities of the community. But if the going gets terrible and the community takes a bad turn, you can leave the community without incurring…

massive frictional costs. We’ve lost all of that. And it’s a very big problem. So, but as much as I have this intellectual appreciation for community, I’ve often found that I create a community around me of like sort of like-minded rather than joining something. That’s been my pattern through life. Yeah.

I’ve definitely formed a community. I used to tell my kids, I don’t have that many friends. Don’t worry if you don’t have very many friends. It’s quality that matters, not quantity. I could probably count on one hand my friends. Yeah. Did you find that your friend group changed? Oh, it’s definitely changed. It’s massively changed. People that I thought were my friends. I don’t know if I can really trust them anymore. Their judgment. I think they’re good people, but I don’t trust their judgments anymore. And now what I found is instead of having five friends, I’ve got

Too many. I’ve got friends all over the world who I love, some of whom I’ve never met, but I know I could trust them with my life. They’re just on the same wavelength and their principles and their way they think, they’re incorruptible. I had a wonderful example of this. Of integrity. Arrived in London on Thursday morning. I hadn’t made any evening plans. Just, we thought we might be a little tired and so on. And with an hour to go, my girlfriend said, are we gonna be…

We’re going to have company this evening. And I sort of thought, oh, well, that would be nice. And I shot, shot out a little note on Twitter thinking, yeah. And somebody who I’ve never heard of before, who I’ve never spoken before, spoken to before, put his hand up and said, I’m coming into London. Where, you know, from quite far out, it was quite a lot of travel. Amazing. And this, this guy, Simon was his name. I don’t know. Yeah. Never come across him. Sat down next to me at this dinner table. There were six of us. Yeah. My girlfriend and I and four other people.

Ahmad (22:04.23)
Three of whom were already or two of whom were already known to me with Vanessa there Vanessa was there. Yeah, and mutual friend yeah, she’s great and he just So impressed me, you know with the depth and quality of the thinking that That sense of somebody who engages the world and is looking for answers has is motivated by some level of curiosity. Yeah

It was such a nice experience. You know, I sat comfortably next to somebody I’d never met and you went straight into meaningful conversation. It was zero for small talk or, you know, ice breaking or anything. We could just talk as if we’d known each other forever. You just said it, that, you know what? Meaningful conversation. You can only have a meaningful relationship with someone if you have a meaningful conversation. If your conversation is just, oh, what’s the weather like? Oh.

You know, how are you doing? Or without actually meaning, like caring, how are you doing? This meaningful chit chat, which I’ve just done away with, I don’t have time for that anymore. I’m not interested in that. One of the things I’ve really struggled with is, for example, close friends and family, where I cannot have those meaningful conversations anymore. You think, if I can’t have this meaningful conversation, there’s just no point. It’s quite difficult. I’ve had some pretty painful experiences where, you know,

sort of a, let’s say, there was a certain articulation of my social life, certain friends and so on. Within weeks of coming out in, you know, my first public statements were in late April of 2020. I’d been working behind the scenes since, you know, a couple of months before that. But when I started shouting because I couldn’t get anybody in my personal network to listen,

I found that suddenly a lot of people just completely dried up, didn’t want to know. And I would sort of phone one or two just to check, you know, whether it wasn’t something else that was wrong or whatever. And that would have a fairly cold conversation. And then that was it. It just disappeared. And it was like that for, I would say, 80 or 90 percent of my social circles. Same.

Ahmad (24:25.334)
And then what happened very quickly after that was there were these very interesting people entered my life. The network of skeptics and of dissidents around the world. Dissidents. Yeah. And those people have been absolutely amazing. I now have the most spectacular holidays and trips and visitors coming to Cape Town stay with me. And I absolutely love it. When I arrive in London, I’ve had three dinners in a row. I’m kind of jaded because all of them turn out to be fairly late affairs.

liberal amount of wine and I’m tired, but every one of them has been spectacular. You know, just such interesting people and so stimulating. I would have come, by the way. I saw that message, but I was in deepest, darkest Wales on a retreat learning about functional medicine. So I was like, damn it, I would have loved to have been there. But I knew people were going and I knew Vanessa was meeting you. So it was all good. So, yeah, it’s fine. So has this

So I had a conversation with someone today about coming on my podcast. I really respect them and like them. They’ve got some fantastic things to say, but the response was I, I don’t want to come on because I’m worried about what impact it’ll have on my job where I’ll get canceled. Yeah. And I respect that. And people have got families and mortgages like me and I’ve just been canceled. Um, you know, I was talking about that five weeks ago. So 75% of my

80% of my practice has just gone out the window. And it’s stressful and it’s difficult. But I wouldn’t change anything for a second. And I feel like if enough people spoke up, they can’t cancel us all. Yeah. Well that- How do we get those people to speak up and say, you know what, hell to the cancel, I’m not gonna be quiet anymore. And I’m gonna like, I’m gonna speak up against this nonsense. Look, one of the uncomfortable realities is that-

It’s the case with a lot of people that they only speak up when things start becoming inconvenient to them. I realized that early on that it was relatively easy to get vocal support from people in the restaurant trade, you know. Yes. Because their restaurants all being closed down. And it’s, I think the case that as…

Ahmad (26:42.806)
time goes by, more and more people are going to become inconvenienced and so that will be a force in the right direction. But I also think that as the fear dissipates, more people start to see things clearly. As they start noticing that people around them have been injured by these gene therapy injections, I think they begin to ask questions. And we can see the signs of this.

In South Africa, about 30% of the population was psychosed enough to have a couple of shots. And I should be fair, a lot of people didn’t want them, but were forced to by their employers. So they weren’t all psychosed. But for the most part, we’re talking about a bunch of psychosed people who took the shots. 70% saw through the bullshit, didn’t take a shot. But when it came to the first booster, uptake was less than 1%. People had already worked it out. And

So now all of those people, the 99% of people who didn’t take a booster are on our side. A variety of factors prevent them from speaking out. Risk of cancel culture, embarrassment and dissonance. They went along with a crazy story and now they must try and understand why. And the true answers to why they went along are sometimes extremely uncomfortable. Yes. I see this a lot with

There’s a certain category of dissidents who emerged only when the vaccines came around. I ask them, I say to them, you do realize that under all plausible calculations, the years of life lost to lockdown is an order of magnitude higher than what’s going to happen with the vaccines. You understand that? How did you miss the lockdown? Why did you not?

start screaming and shouting like you’re screaming and shouting now when the lockdown came around. And that puts them in such an uncomfortable position. Can I put my hand up? Please do. So my friend, I’m one of those late to the party. So I totally get it. And I apologize. So one of the reasons why I get upset with some of my colleagues is they haven’t ever apologized. I put my hands up and I say, again, I’m so sorry I didn’t speak up about the lockdowns.

Ahmad (29:10.474)
Yeah, I was just recovering from the Brexit campaign. I’d been hit financially for doing that big time. I was penalized for supporting the Brexit cause. All the doctors obviously were pro-European. They stopped referring patients to me. So imagine that because of my political views, I was punished. I wasn’t referred patients anymore. And then I was just recovering from that battering.

and the psychological insults being called a racist and a white supremist, all of this. This brown kid from Glasgow, who’s been called everything under the moon and the sun, standing at, just in local towns here in Cheshire and whatever, in Beaconsfield, having people come up to me and go, you white supremist. This is hilarious. You’re just like, so I was in a bad place in the beginning of January, 2020. I just wanted life to get back to normal and pick myself back up again.

And then suddenly I’m locked out in my hospitals. I’m like this whole fear campaign. And I fell for the whole lockdown. I was like, oh my God, we need lockdown. What’s happening for two weeks? I was an idiot. I was not in a good place to start off with. Within a week of lockdown, I was like, this is bullshit. Denying people early access to treatment. But I was stuck here in my garden. I wasn’t allowed to go to work. All my colleagues were like, oh yeah.

this is what’s happening, you know, everything’s getting canceled. I didn’t have a clue what was going on in the world. I was totally isolated. I wasn’t on social media. So I was, yeah, I was dealing with my family and looking after my kids. Six months, I never earned a penny. It was very stressful. I wasn’t having any furlough. So I think I was not in a place to be campaigning because I was just really down. And, but then I picked myself back up and I started speaking up.

mandates, vaccines, all that kind of stuff. I must say, I think that a lot of the people who did emerge later in response to vaccine mandates, I think if anything like this happened again, they’d spot it, they’d see it clearly quickly, and they would speak out, I think they’re people of that nature. But it’s still worthwhile just to think about, like, you know, what are the personal attributes that led to missing something?

Ahmad (31:25.802)
I don’t think it’s worth talking about too much more because there’s so many interesting things for us to discuss and what’s left of our hour. Yeah, let’s go, let’s go. You know, the thing that I’ve been dwelling upon a lot recently is just how to get people over the last line. You know, you kind of alluded to it earlier where you’ve got this phenomenon where people are insistent upon engaging with COVID as a medical phenomenon.

I don’t want to let go of that. And to me, I think one of the last shoes to drop is going to be the true story behind the origins of the sequence and the COVID narrative. Because if you look at the timing of events in that month, the one month, January 2020, I think if I challenge anybody…

any commercial person, any scientist, whatever, to just look at a timeline of those events and then look me in the eye and tell me that was anything other than bullshit. Yeah. I mean, just to recap, I love doing this because they’re sort of, they’re 10, 11 events that are compressed into that one month. And when you realize how close together those events.

you have to see that there was criminality, there was planning, there was a staging happening. Look, just before you dive into that, I’m so glad you’re saying that, because I have had enough of the conversations with very intelligent people who go, oh, it’s all just a coincidence, it was just a cock up. Emergent event. It was just incompetence. Politicians are stupid, they can’t organize a piss up in a brewery. This is not some grand conspiracy, it’s a…

CoCup, people need to get over this. Yeah, and what that reflects there is a tendency to over-dichotomize. Because there will be elements of CoCup, there will be elements of emergence, and there will be elements of planning. And some of the planning, you know, we must just be careful, what do we mean by planning? Well, when you put doctors in medical school and teach them only about allopathic meds, only about cures at the end of a needle, well, that’s…

Ahmad (33:48.47)
Part of the planning because then you’ve got an army full of people ready to support the vaccine mandate. Amen. Absolutely. That’s planning. Yeah. And it’s not a conspiracy. It’s done in the public eye. You’re standing up in a lecture theater telling them that stuff. It’s not conspiracy. So people tend to think, oh, well, the moment you mentioned plan, you’re talking about like, you know, the blow felt in a volcano crater with stroking a white cat and evil plotting.

It’s not like that at all. But I mean, let’s just maybe zoom through that month quickly. Go, go, go. Okay, go. The first thing that happens is we have a very strange phenomenon in China, and I, Dr. Spotts, a case of supposedly atypical pneumonia. Now, that event is a very strange event to start with. There’s lots of pneumonia all the time in China, okay. But he says, this one’s very strange, okay. So that’s…

30th of December, it’s just before the beginning of January. And then supposedly, we have the emergence of, according to the World Health Organization already, on January the 5th, they’re telling us that they have identified 44 cases out of a population of eight million people of atypical pneumonia of unknown etiology, unknown cause.

So that’s taken them five days from the time that the first doctor said he’d seen something strange. Then two days later, they had declared that a new SARS-like virus was the cause of these pneumonia cases. Two days after, they decided that they’d identified 65 unusual cases. Just three days later, we have a situation where the firm

manufacturing the first PCR kits to test for this thing is already shipping them. So let’s just recap. Unbelievable. We’ve gone from the identification of the first patient to the shipping of the first kits in 11 days. Okay. And on that same day when they ship the kids… By the way, are the lights too bright? No, no, it’s all good. Okay. On the same day when they ship the kits, the first gene sequence is published.

Ahmad (36:13.915)

Two days after that, the World Health Organization has already accepted Drosten’s, Christian Drosten’s PCR protocol as what they call the gold standard for testing for this new disease. And a few more gene sequences are published in that time.

Just 12 days, nine days after that, the famous Corman-Drosten protocol is published, is submitted for review, and 27 hours later, it’s peer reviewed and published. What the hell? In a journal that… That takes months. That Drosten is an editor of. Huh. Two days after that, there’s a Chinese study about the specific…

clinical symptoms that relate, supposedly relate to COVID. And that’s published in the New England Journal of Medicine. We still only 25 days from the beginning of this whole thing. And then five days after that, the first study is published also in the NEJM about asymptomatic transmission. So what have we done there? We’ve established in the course, in a compressed timeframe of just 26 days, there’s a new clinical.

manifestation. It’s caused by this virus. This virus has the following sequence. Here’s a test which is the gold standard in identifying that sequence and the research identifying the primers that we’re going to use all over the world has been submitted for peer review and published and we’ve described the clinical features of this so-called new disease. I would submit to you

Ahmad (38:07.522)
that every single one of those steps was A, complete and utter bullshit, and B, premeditated. I’ll move you brother. I’ll move you brother. There’s no debate here. I’m not, I’m not arguing any of that. That’s, that’s science has never moved so fast. And I can tell you right now science doesn’t move that fast. It’s bullshit. It can take months to get a reliable sequence for a virus. And if you look at the circumstances around that, just that sequencing event.

I mean, even if you take away the security agencies hanging around the people who are doing the research and having these secretive meetings before, two days before the guy flies from Australia to China to sort of make sure they get to the right answer, even if you take that stuff away, there’s so much weird stuff going on. That first patient where they got… So who’s driving all this? Look, I mean, I’m relatively comfortable saying that there’s an incredible…

apparatus that is sort of an industry trying to make pandemics happen all the time. In the 2009 case was the one that was where it was really exposed with swine flu. Yeah, Wolfgang Wodarg. Wolfgang Wodarg, yeah. Yeah. But it’s not just him. There were a lot of people involved there. I mean, he had a massive role and he’s a wonderful person. He was one of the first people I interviewed in 2020 to try and understand this kind of con. It was interesting. That was like where my head went. I want to speak to the guy who…

Got the last con. Yeah. I think he was like my second or third interview after a third interview after Sinatra Gupta and Jay Bhattacharya. In the wake of, you know, when I suddenly heard three doctors stand up and say the same thing we’d been saying, which although Jay needs to stop talking about the pandemic. Yeah, we all get in there. Listen, I have no fear. Jay will get to the right answer. He’s got his head screwed on. OK, good. But you have the

Sorry, I’ve kind of lost track, but where were you? We were talking about the pandemic and war dog and had the swine flu and who’s actually behind it, the industry, the Gavies and everything. But the reason why I’m saying this is I’m really confused because you’ve got America talking about big bad China and pivoting to the East. They don’t seem to be America’s best friends, but it seems like China was almost colluding with America to do this shit.

Ahmad (40:36.674)
On the right so it gets really confusing like what the fuck is going on the surface It looks like they’re the there were their worst enemies But in reality it looks like they’re all working together It’s like one happy team and we shouldn’t be afraid You know it shouldn’t be too difficult for us to understand that sometimes Powerful people find that their interests are aligned that they have a shared objective in the world So the example I give here is okay. Obviously you’ve got the pharmaceutical industry because they can make a boatload out

the injections and the remdesivir if you Gilead and any other number of testing kits and whatever. There’s just loads of money to be made from the fear and the hysteria and the scams and so on. Okay, so tick that box. We know why they’re in the game. Yeah. But then you’ve got your defense and intelligence agencies. And there are just legions of people there who are employed under the banner of bioweaponry and pandemic preparedness because they…

They live in this kind of fantasy world where the next pandemic is just around the corner and gain of function is real and they can engineer viruses and the enemies can infect our population, but apparently not theirs, with a new gain of function deadly virus. Now all of that stuff is absolute, absolute cods swallow. There’s no evidence. I mean, engineering viruses, do you have any idea how complex this is?

Even the serial passage things they’re doing, they’ve got no chance of being successful in the real world. So this whole thing, the lab leak, the gain of function, all complete and utter hogwash. And you don’t listen to people who are banging their drum all the time. That’s diversionary stuff. 100%. You’ve gotta look at, keep focused on the hoax, keep focused on the scam. And the moment you start talking about that little spike protein or the fur in cleavage site, you’re lost.

You’ve lost it. You’re back in that window. You’re back in the Overton window, and you’re not understanding the game. You’ve got no chance of understanding the game, if that’s where your head is. So to me, the Department of Defense and the intelligence agencies, well, there’s just tons of evidence for them assembling this machinery over time and wanting to use it. They talk about the need for testing warm-based manufacturing.

Ahmad (42:55.626)
so that they have this at any point in time, the capacity to roll out by the billion injections. So that was how do you get the manufacturing capacity there and waiting and warm base means it’s ready to go. For what? To poison the enemy? No, for vaccines. But why are they so much into vaccines? I still don’t understand why the defense want to be involved. So the bullshit story they believe in is that there’s a crazy scientist in a lab in, you name it, Russia, China.

Saudi Arabia, wherever, who’s working right now on contacting a deadly virus and they’re going to release it in America. So we need to be ready with our vaccines to get the whole population. They actually believe the bullshit. They believe that stuff. Honestly, I mean, I’ve spoken to loads of virologists and that will drive me mad. They really believe it. Oh, my God. Oh, shit. Yeah. And then it justifies their job and their purpose and their research grants.

Because it’s just like the climate people, you know, if you subscribe to the narrative, you get research grants, you can employ more people, you get a position. So it kind of fulfills this whole industry, just self-feeding. And then you’ve got another part to all of this, which is the surveillance story. Yes. They’re spending $30 billion a year on surveillance for viruses. They will find them because, you know, the…

Viruses are everywhere and it’s an incredibly diverse and volatile story. It’s very, there’s a lot of flux in the viral. So they’re gonna find novel variants and what’s novel about them is not that it’s a new virus, this idea of viral saltation, I call it jumping out of a species or a lab or whatever. That’s not where new viruses are just new detections from…

swarm. And if there happens to be a nucleotide sequence that you haven’t seen before, it doesn’t mean it’s new, it was maybe always there. Or maybe it’s a sequence from another family or genus and you’d seen it there but not here and so on. 100%. It’s all nonsense. Do you know something like 8 to 9% of our DNA is viral? Yes. Do you know we have a viral biome? Yeah.

Ahmad (45:18.658)
Do you know when they talk about this SV40 gene, simian vector, simian virus 40, because there was 39 before that and there’s another 40 after. There’s thousands of millions of viruses. You’re going to find different variants. That makes me think of another dichotomy that really frustrates me is this idea of germ versus terrain theory. Why can’t it be both? Yeah, it’s so obvious, right? And what a statement I’m prepared to make is that the pathogenicity aspects are

massively overblown and the terrain aspects are massively undercooked. Health is what should, wellbeing is what we should be focusing on and it’s obviously the case that we need to change diets and get people off this seed oil and carbohydrate infested nonsense that they’re shoving into their mouths. It’s gonna kill them, everybody with certainty eventually. So one of the things that really

annoys me is this whole idea right now. We’re drifting away a bit, so we need to come back in a sec to remind me of that. But you know, we talk about, you know, mRNA platform now for this drug and that vaccine and we need gene therapy and the UK is leading in gene science and we’re opening up this new factory and this new research centre. You know, genetic disease accounts for no more than 5% of all diseases. 95% plus of all diseases are lifestyle and environmental. So why the f***?

Are we not talking about that? Because there’s no money in that. There’s no money. There’s money in having people. There’s money in sick people. There’s money in sick people and profiting from their misery and selling this bullshit gene therapy. Yeah. But, Ahmed, we must go back to the… Yeah, let’s go back. The cause and the who’s doing it. Yes, yes, yes. Because we’ve covered defense contractors and departments of defense. Yeah. And the… Pharma. The intelligence community. We’ve covered pharma.

There’s also, let’s call it an ideological set of people who we can describe as Malthusians. Their belief structure is that the world has finite resources. Oh, gotcha. And that as the population grows, those resources are gonna be depleted. Now, it’s also a stupid perspective, and I use that word with intending to use the full force of the word stupid, because if there’s nothing clearer,

Ahmad (47:43.266)
to you after the last 300 years then that humans have the capacity to solve problems and establish entirely new types of resource and make the resources go further and that process is indefinite. That we’re not going to run out, we’re not going to get to the end of the universe and run out of atoms. No, but listen, there’s peak oil. There’s peak oil. We’re running out. Peak oil. You know, it’s the idea that we’re going to run out of photons or something like that. How does this work?

you know, that there are not enough atoms around. It’s just a basically flawed premise. But it’s corrupted every level of society to the point where good people, I know, family members and friends, church going, stand next to me and go, there’s too many people. The problem, Ahmed, is there’s too many people in this world. And I turned around to one of these people and said, that’s the most ungodly thing you could say. Of course, there’s enough for this planet to sustain billions more.

Our planet, this little spaceship that’s traveling through the universe is amazing. It’s a miracle and it can sustain us and there is enough. And this scarcity… But why are we not even limited to that? Absolutely. And this scarcity idea is fundamentally not just flawed, but idiotic. And I use the full force of that word. And pathological. Now let’s connect that Malthusian idea to the whole…

we’re seeing now because there’s another alignment. If you go back to the 1970s you see the Club of Rome and the Collegium Internationale and Rockefeller Foundation. Careful you’re getting conspiratorial here. All these organizations which exist and which publish papers, so again not in secret, so not a conspiracy. It’s a reality. You pick up their documents and you can read them and it’s not a conspiracy. Can we agree that? Yeah. So the documents

the need to drive down population. And the way they say, we’re gonna need to be able to control people, identify that as a priority. And they say that a good way to control them is to first make them scared, so that they ask for the control. And they, in 1970s, the two ideas that they had was you’re gonna have to use invisible threats because you can’t claim a visible threat that people don’t see. So you have to use invisible threats. Yeah, you can’t threaten them with something that doesn’t exist. And…

Ahmad (50:09.066)
What did they suggest? Deadly pathogens. Tell people that there’s a deadly disease. And climate. But you know what type of climate? Wasn’t it? Cooling. Yeah. Global cooling. The only problem was, around about 1960, unbeknown to them, the average global temperature had started rising. In an event completely disconnected from the Industrial Revolution or anything. That’s also another scam. But from 1960 on, it had actually been warming. So their idea of.

scaring everybody with global cooling faced a snack. So they switched to global warming. It’s as simple as that. And these two, you can see this in these Club of Rome documents where they’re just saying, look, yeah, we need to scare everybody. What can we do? The way they said it is we can influence people into taking contraceptives and having fewer children. We can do that. But you know, it doesn’t really work that well. So you’ve got to scare them, too. That’s literally.

The two alternatives. So break it down. So what is the scaring actually doing? How are they controlling the population by scaring them? Imagine I’m really stupid. I’m just a dumb orthopo. So what do you mean by that? Okay. So if you scare people, what do they do? They turn around looking for a savior. Government do something. Yes. It’s the recipe for centralization and control. That’s what you do. You create a bogeyman and then people will turn around afraid and they’ll beg you. They will give up as many of their rights as you ask them to.

in order to get protection from the deadly foe. Do you know people like Benjamin Franklin? I’ve been talking about this 200 years ago. Sure. Nothing changes. Nothing new under the sun. Nothing new, mate. And so what you’ve got there is this, this alliance of powerful people who are obsessed with these ideas of finite resources. This word sustainable. You see it everywhere, right? I was talking about that the other day. What the frack does that even mean? It’s the Malthusian proposition.

Ahmad (52:07.239)
Can you just say that one more time? What is it? Sustainability is the Malthusian proposition in drag. I need to make a clip of that. I used to watch this program called Great British Menu here on BBC and I really enjoyed it. These chefs come and cook and then the competition. This year really pissed me off. Nick, don’t worry. I’m keeping an eye on the time. But this year I’m going to get you back to the time. Don’t worry. You’re going to the Philharmonic

They started a star tradition and they insist has to be vegan for sustainable reasons. What the frack? What’s that? What is that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, and that linked to the taking meat out of diets and because cows burp and create methane and climate change. And, you know, the number of just completely absurd propositions that get strung together in this disconnected from reality world, right? I mean, it… So…

If you open your eyes, you just see them all over the place, don’t you? So one of the reasons why I think they’re pushing the whole trans agenda is if people are non binary, if you have surgery and you’ve no longer got sexual function, you don’t, by the way, you can’t procreate. Well, it fits into so many streams of the narrative, because yes, obviously. That’s one thing, by the way, just one thing. Cutting out a person’s sexual organs is a pretty good way of making sure that their fertility goes down. Yeah, that’ll work.

Patience for life. But what it also does is if you look back in time at centralizers, at people who are trying to exert control over populations, they all become obsessed with breaking down the nuclear family. 100%. And the trans movement is very successful at doing that. Also this erasure of women. I’m old enough to remember when there was this thing called women’s rights and feminism.

Now we’ve switched from that, where that was the most important thing, where you couldn’t say as a man, there was a whole category of things you weren’t allowed to comment on because those were women’s things. Now we’ve switched from that world to a world where women are just being crossed out. Right, what’s that all about? Yeah, and think about it. If you’re trying to erase the nuclear family, that’s one of the things you will do. So you still saw it in China and in Russia. They got the genders to wear the same clothing.

Ahmad (54:29.726)
or gave them those overalls. Yes. It’s erasure. Yes. Nothing new. 100% because even in the Soviet times, that’s what they did. They wanted to get rid of the nuclear family because they knew that was the biggest obstacle between the state and taking freedoms. If you, if you as a nuclear family defend your children, your family, you know, that’s, that’s an obstacle to complete totalitarianism. But if the family no longer exists and the state becomes your family, bingo.

Yeah, and a related topic which is equally disturbing for me is that, you know, one of the things is if you’re trying to, you know, invoke a kind of control-oriented state, the rollout of a surveillance security state type of apparatus, the one population you’re really worried about is angry young men. Yeah. They lead revolutions. Yeah. So how do you neuter the angry young men?

Well, you send them to school where for 12 years they’re told that about toxic masculinity. And they’re told that a man is whatever we want it to be. And we take away all of the elements of masculinity and we start calling them bad names. Yeah, it’s all white men’s fault. Everything’s the fault of the white straight man. They’re basically emasculating young men. Yeah.

are all relevant in the COVID phenomenon. This is what I’m trying to say. This is where I’m trying to link everything together. And a lot of people are not. And I think it is fundamentally all important. We need to call out the bullshit because if you just pick one thing in isolation, it’s back to that overton window. And that’s why my social media has always been about every, all of these topics, climate scam, the trans issues, the COVID scams, the vaccine scams, everything I think is linked. It’s about distorting reality.

Yeah. Now, where it becomes difficult is to try and understand how much is purposeful and how much is just convenient. So let’s look at the vaccines, for example. What do we know about the vaccines for sure? We know that the lipid nanoparticles bombard the reproductive organs, the ovaries and the testes. We know that women experience, loads of women experience unprecedented menstrual bleeding after taking.

Ahmad (56:56.366)
vaccines. We know that they’re associated with the drop, infertility. We know all these things and the products aren’t being taken off the market. I would put it to you that might be because a high percentage of the people with the power to take the products off the market do not think that infertility is such a bad thing. Agreed. That’s a terrifying thought. It’s a terrifying thought because what else are we here on this planet for other than to procreate?

Well, I wouldn’t put that as our purpose. It might be. I know, but it’s important. Imagine tomorrow there are no more children. Yeah, 100%, terrible world. That’s the end of humanity. Well, here’s another link. What did we do? We had a disease where it’s almost impossible for children to die from it. It’s very difficult for them to spread it because they’re too small. They haven’t got enough ACE2 receptors, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I’m speaking within the confines now of the medical.

conventional interpretation of COVID. So children are not at risk and they’re not efficient spreaders. We can arrive at that very quickly within weeks of the so-called outbreak. But what do we do? We put them in masks, we take them out of school, and on the pretext that it results in a marginal improvement in the safety of some older people. That is an inversion of conventional

Morality it’s an inversion of how nuclear families behave Where I come from you do not do that When the ship sinks the women and children get off first and the men go down. Yeah, that’s how you that’s what morality is about You do not take the children and use them as the battering rams in a war in a war which is what they were effectively doing Yeah, I know it’s sick. It’s wrong. Thank you. So it goes to the same

the same. It’s all you see how these things all drive in a philosophy of anti-humanism. Yes. In a philosophy that regards human beings as the scum on the surface of the pale blue dot. It’s not transhumanism. It’s anti-humanism. It’s anti-humanism. Transhumanism is one flavor of it. Yeah. 100%. And where, where does all of the CBDC, the Ukraine war

Ahmad (59:21.846)
Because what’s really making me sad is a lot of people who were awake to the COVID bullshit seem to have fallen for another scam. Certainly when it came to the Ukraine, I was, it was easy for me to see that, that what, you know, just, and let’s be precise. What I mean by there was a scam there. The scam was that we were served up the story that one day Putin got out of bed and conducted an unprovoked attack on the Ukraine. But he’s a nasty Hitler.

Yeah, this is the story. Now that story is complete if anybody with a modicum of historical learning knows that that’s not true, that there’s an ancient conflict there. And in the context of any ancient conflict, to use the word unprovoked is just downright stupid. It’s just useless. I say to people, if you see the word unprovoked in an article about a war, just stop reading the article because the person doesn’t know what they’re talking about. So in that one it was clear that…

This one I think we have to be a bit more careful with. Yes, it is again an ancient conflict. And yes, you can point to terrible things being done on both sides. But what’s happening here is I think a little different from what went on in Ukraine. And I say that as a person who looks at the Israeli government and says, that government has done worse things to its own population than the Hamas guys have done to date.

by like a country mile. They use them as lab rats. They use their own civilians as lab rats and killed. I agree. You know, many more than have been killed here. So I look at the Israeli government, this is not a… I can’t think of a nice thing to say about them. They’re the dirtiest bastards on the planet, okay? Now, I will not say that at all about Israel as a nation, the people. 100%. I’m not going to say that. That’s…

And so I’m not in the mode of denouncing. Don’t take sides. So I think we’re playing into the people at the top is back to the divide and rule. This idea of you have to stand by Israel or stand by Palestine is wrong. I see two victims and I think the evil people are Hamas and the Israeli government, who I think know exactly what’s going on. I don’t believe the narrative at all. I don’t believe.

Ahmad (01:01:46.018)
that this thing just, hundreds of Hamas people just crossed the border and suddenly the world’s most sophisticated border with the most technology and the best army and drone observation suddenly just went AWOL for a few hours. I don’t believe that for a second. And when I heard 40 decapitated babies, not even one, just 40, you know what I thought of? I thought of the Iraq War when the Saddam Hussein soldiers were throwing at Kuwaiti babies out of incubators.

And afterwards there was no evidence of proof and it went quietly away. And what does it justify? It justifies this massive war. It solidifies Netanyahu’s position, who I think doesn’t give a damn about his citizens because he made his country a petri dish, like you said. The only thing I would say that, you know, I said there’s something different about this and here’s the thing. I think there is a current, an ideology that wills the destruction, the obliteration.

the extirpation of the entire Jewish nation, the Israeli state. That’s not, I think it’s wrong to go and slap that on entire segments of the world’s population, but there is a current within those segments that drives in that direction. So you have to be careful. There are some hundred percent. I will say something else. I have very sadly in our community detected very strong currents of antisemitism. And I say that as a person who knows full well.

that the anti-Semite label is plastered around routinely to people who don’t deserve it. We saw it with Bridgen the other day, and Norman Fenton stood up and defended him. So the word anti-Semite is weaponized and used incorrectly, inappropriately all the time. All the time. But the thing that I’m seeing looks pretty much like the real thing and I don’t like it one bit. So is this anti-Semitic? So I believe in the state of Israel. I believe in the state of Israel, but I can also be…

argue that just like there are, I agree, there are elements out there that wish for Israel to disappear. There are also elements that wish for all the Palestinians to be ethnically cleansed and all of the occupied territories to be cleansed of Arabs and Palestinians and Christians and Muslims and to be a Zionist Israeli state which fundamentally currently, I believe, acts in all intents and purposes as an apartheid state. And as someone who is from South Africa,

Ahmad (01:04:08.918)
Surely you should see that there are people living in Israel under occupied land and who are treated less than second class citizens. I don’t think the analogy is right because as far as I know the substantial proportion of Arabs in Israel have pretty much the same rights. They don’t. Well they can become judges. In South Africa, to use that analogy you need to be precise because in South Africa the apartheid was a very different. No but what about the occupied territories? They can’t travel.

There’s no freedom of movement. Can we go back to your question that because I think we’re losing the root of it. Your question was, I think the parallels between these other served up crises. Served up. The served up problem reaction solution. Yeah, I think I think that pattern of perma crisis is very much part of this whole conflict. You want to keep the maintain the fog of war.

confuse people, flood the zone of misinformation, and keep the eye off. And division. The bigger problem that’s going on, which is creeping centralization. Yeah, have us in fighting. Yeah. And not see who the real evil person is. If I could bring the problem down to one word. Yeah. Our enemy, to locate our enemy. The word is centralization. That’s the enemy. Yep. And all of these things, I have this little heuristic.

which has been dubbed Hudson’s razor. I’m sorry, I get a little kick out of it. But it’s a simple thing that goes like this. Any problem served up as a global crisis, number one. Number two, admitting only global solutions. And number three, in the presence of suppression of dissent, is a scam. I love it. It’s as simple as that. One.

problem presented as global. Two, admitting global solutions only. Three, amid suppression of dissent. If you see those three, you don’t need to go and study the thing or do a spreadsheet or look for the virus or look for the climate change or measure something or look at a model. Just step back and know for absolute certain that it’s a scam. And the first thing you will spot often is actually the censorship.

Ahmad (01:06:32.31)
when you’re not allowed to say something, when you get canceled for saying it, look up, look up. Is there a problem solution there? Yeah. Sitting above that cancellation that’s been established at a global level and watch most of the time you will find one. Things that are being held out, you can go and look on the list of the 17 or however many there are sustainable development goals. It will sit there as one of those problems.

If you don’t find it there, there’s a handy little wheel that the World Economic Forum has put up with all sorts of problems that are, like as far as I can tell, totally unrelated, but like real conspiracy theorists, they have little dots joining them, and lines and dots joining them all up. Like it actually looks like crazy person territory. And on that wheel, there’s a list of problems all expressed as being of global concern.

So if you can look at that wheel and find the ones that you’re not allowed to talk about, those are the things, those are the scams.

Ahmad (01:07:38.026)
I can’t argue with that. We’ve got about 10, 15 minutes and then we’ll wrap up and I’ll drop you off at the station, don’t worry. I know, that’s fine. So basically, yeah. So talking to Sephadean, talking to Ed Griffin, they said the exact same. Decentralization is the answer. We need to get away from big government, super national organizations, all these two and three letter organizations back to communities, local communities.

How is that going to happen though? We can’t kick these people out of parliament. We can’t vote them out. It doesn’t matter what team you said right at the beginning, left, right, it’s all nonsense. How do we do this, Nick? What is our solution? Because one thing I was telling you at the beginning, remember, was my frustration. I’m in all these WhatsApp groups, these freedom movements, we’re all chatting. No one’s coming up with an answer. Okay, so I like to think about the problem from the end of the solution. Okay.

Centralizers ultimately fail. Certainty. Why? Because centralization extinguishes the means of error correction. So the systems go wrong. You can’t be adopting one size fits all solutions to things and expect anything other than calamity. Why is that?

It’s fundamental to the nature of knowledge and our ability to create new explanations and thereby to solve our problems, that it proceeds in an evolutionary fashion. That’s fundamental. So you need to have a diversity of attempts when you are trying to reckon with a problem. Very often, your problems are so complex you can’t even quite pin them down. And so the diversity of efforts that need to be undertaken to gradually chip away…

at the complex structure is enormous. And that’s why free markets result in economic growth, because you have thousands of companies out there all trying to solve the same broad set of problems and attempting it in different ways. And some of those problems, some of those companies succeed and others fail. It’s an evolutionary survival of the fittest kind of approach. Now this is true for knowledge growth generally. So when you centralize and when you invoke top-down…

Ahmad (01:09:54.79)
one size fits all policy, you’re actually killing knowledge growth. You’re killing progress, you’re killing the ability to solve problems. Innovation. So centralized systems inevitably fail. Every one of them in history fails. When somebody gets it right to invoke a centralization, it just collapses. Roman Empire, Russia, the Soviet Union, every example in history. So it ultimately fails.

Ahmad (01:10:24.39)
Now, bad to me looks like we get trapped into a kind of surveillance state thing that gradually encroaches us in upon us, puts us into a digital prison, puts us into a geographical prison with 15-minute cities and digital passports and all sorts of constraints. Bad, we gradually go there and gradually the system kind of shudders and shudders and shudders until eventually there’s some kind of

calamitous revolution that topples the entire structure. And now that is bad because it goes through the maximum duration of pain, deprivation and poverty and so on. And if you don’t think that those things will come around, you really are missing it. I mean, I like to draw people’s attention to constrained energy budgets that are implied by net zero. The reduction in the average amount of energy that they expect

people to undergo the average amount of energy usage, I should say. That will result in mass starvation. You have starvation on a scale that we have never seen before. Because our ability to solve problems is fundamentally tied up with our ability to make transformations in the real world, which is tied to energy. So there is a path where unbelievable destruction can happen.

And the question we have to ask is how do we bring the destruction of that centralized system sooner in time and how do we get to it with the minimum damage being done? Because I tell you now, every one of these innovations they’re making, whether you’re looking at anything that’s top-down, so the electric vehicles, the so-called renewable energy, all of these things are actually doing the opposite of what was intended. They’re resulting in an increase in the costs.

or a decrease in the efficiency of energy production. And it’s because the calculations don’t include all of the factors, they leave factors out. So like the resources used in assembling a battery, from the extraction processes to the manufacturing processes to the distribution processes.

Ahmad (01:12:45.31)
Look at the economics of it. It’s making it prohibitively expensive to replace the battery in a car. People throw the cars away. I know, it’s waste. So if you assume that the car only lasts for five years and factor in all those costs, you get to a very different answer than the one that says, oh, well, this will reduce emissions or CO2 consumption or energy. There’s nothing sustainable in an electric car. It’s not. And the same with the wind farms.

Because they don’t provide baseload power, you need something else. So again, it comes down to, is it all incompetence? Because basically if they had just built enough nuclear power stations 10 years ago, 12 years ago, we’d have enough energy and not to worry. But they’ve deliberately want to reduce the amount of energy consumption. And the only way that can happen is if there’s less people or we’re impoverished and start starving. So, so my view would be that.

A person with centralizing motifs drifting around in their head is at a level incompetent as a human being. So I would go there and just say, look, you don’t need to say too much more than that. But if people who dream of systems that they control and spreadsheets that they write and models that they create, if only everybody would implement that model, the world would be such a nicer place. Those are not smart people. They’re incompetent people. They’re incompetent humans.

So they may have a degree and be able to build a fancy spreadsheet and solve some differential equations that give you the COVID model or the climate model or whatever. But the fact that they’re trying to do that makes them a special category of stupid. This is guy David Krakow, who was, I think, I don’t know if he still is, but he was the head of the Santa Fe Institute for many years. And he has a wonderful analysis. He says, look, you must always remember that there are different types of stupidity.

in the world. And he gave the example, he says, you know the problem of trying to solve a Rubik’s Cube. You’ve played with them as a kid. He said, the smart approach is to try and work out the algorithms that you use to rotate pieces from this corner to that corner, or to get the edge all the same color and all that. And you see kids learning those algorithms, so to such an extent that they can do them in their sleep. They can solve the one side this way, and then there’s certain things you do to rotate this and that.

Ahmad (01:15:08.374)
The algorithmic solution is the smart way of doing things. And then there are better and worse algorithms, ones that get you the solution in the fewest moves. And there are algorithm sets that depend on the initial condition of the cube and so on. So there’s lots of degrees of quality of the explanations of how to solve a cube. From very smart to just above average sort of thing.

Then there’s the approach of saying, okay, well what we’ll do is we’ll just attach the cube to a robot and the robot will just randomly make moves. Now you can show mathematically that eventually the cube will be solved. You may need to make more moves than there are atoms in the observable universe in order to get the solution, but in principle, that random approach to solving a Rubik’s cube will work. But it’s stupid.

It’s stupid.

But it can get even worse. Another way of doing this is to get the kid to sit down and keep turning one side of the cube round and round and round. That will never result in a solution for the Rubik’s Cube. So we’ve got to understand that there are degrees of stupidity. Now, in my mind, the people that would be centralizers, the builders of these models, the utilitarians, the people who are trying to…

create systems of governing the whole planet, global government, the new world order. They’re in the one side turning stupidity camp.

Ahmad (01:16:49.71)
They’re trying to do something that is fundamentally incompatible with reality. That’s how stupid these people are. Okay. And so we must always remember that. Yeah. They’re there. I, we, people make a lot of noise about the nudge units, the manipulation of behavioral and that’s real. That is going on. There are units of people who are intent upon doing it, but I keep on pointing out to people, you mustn’t imagine that they’re amazing at what they do.

and that these techniques that they have are so brilliant. The reason they’ve been successful is there’s been a staggering amount of money behind them. They’ve just been shouting all these messages loudly enough. So yes, we can sit there with our team of psychologists and tease out the messages that they’re trying to use, the ton of techniques that they’re trying to use, the manipulations and so on. We can see that. But their efficacy is actually because of the sheer quantity of money that they’ve thrown at the problem. When we try to hire a

public relations agency for Panda to help us get the word out. We found that we couldn’t really find one that wasn’t already working for Pfizer. Oh shit. Almost every PR agency that we knocked on, the door we knocked on was working for Pfizer or one of the other pharmaceutical firms. They couldn’t work with us. That’s how much money is thrown down the media channels and the advertising channels in order to propel and think about it.

They bought Guardian, the BBC, they bought out all the universities, they’re funding Imperial, Oxford. I mean, the amount of money that Bill and Gates, Melinda Foundation, bang, they’re sponsoring everything. Yeah. I mean, the university, my alma mater is 22% funded by one health channel. Like it’s the money from Gates and Gavi and even the US CDC and NHI. And that’s not going to affect.

their policies and objectives? Never, never. Well, if you’re an academic in my old university and you say one bad thing about the vaccine or about lockdown, that’s the end of your career, that you’re out, you know? Because their money all comes from there. It doesn’t matter how good your research is and how much evidence you’ve got, you’re out. So, I mean, that’s the reality, is that an enormous amount of money is being spent here. Now that…

Ahmad (01:19:13.294)
the commanding of those resources will disappear quickly because the ideas that these people have are just so bad. Yeah. And that’s a hope for us. Okay, so I’ve got two questions because we’re running out of time. I need to get you back to the train station. So number one question is, for all the listeners out there, how do they defend themselves, protect themselves, their families, prepare themselves? Because I think, you know, I was speaking to Ed Dad about this and he said,

things are going to get a lot worse before they get better. And I don’t know how long it’s going to take. But if you look at all these things that you gave example, Rome and Soviet Union, things got really bad. There was chaos, there was famine, there was death. So how do people protect themselves? Because right now, a lot of people are like, everything’s fine. But it’s back to that slow burning, you know, so slow boiling frog. People don’t know they’re in the pan and it’s going to get hot.

So what do people do? Let’s take it at a general point first. I say to people, you can get more independence in your life, but it comes at a cost. You may have the job at the cushy corporate and all that, paying you a certain salary and affording you a certain lifestyle, but with your skills and abilities, whatever they are, there is a more independent version of that you out there.

Be prepared though, that you’re going to have to sacrifice something in terms of normally income. Take that sacrifice now on the chin. Become more independent. Think of ways to reduce your dependence. If you feel that you’re unable to speak out on some issue, if you feel that you do not have the freedom to express yourself and to act in the world, it’s a sign that you…

very urgently need to address your independence. And you need to swallow hard, tighten the belt, and take the cut, whatever it means you have to cut. Because you’re enslaved. The cuts coming for you anyway, if these guys get in control. And the only way we’re ever going to be pushed back on the borg is if enough people assert their independence. I did it very mindfully.

Ahmad (01:21:38.526)
About eight years ago, I walked out of the corporate world. I took a massive smack in NAV. I started my own firm. I was very careful in starting that firm to make sure that there was nobody who could stop me from saying what I wanted to say and doing what I wanted to do. I had firm control within reason. Everybody ultimately can be thrown in jail or whatever. But that’s why I was able to speak out.

Many people share my views, for example, in my profession, in the actuarial profession, but they work for a big insurance company that gags them. They don’t value their independence highly enough. That’s the problem. And this comes back to decentralization. 100%, I left then a chance because I couldn’t speak up. I thought by going private and working for myself, I would be able to speak up. And I’ve been censored and canceled, but I still am now looking at ways that I can escape this. Yes.

That’s brilliant. That’s exactly what’s needed. What you’re doing is taking responsibility. Because it’s true for every single person on this planet that their independence is their responsibility. If you want to be part of this, if you want to push back and fight, guess what? You have to take responsibility and welcome the obligations that places on you. One of them is very much to assert to

Do the hard yard thinking and take the hard actions, the tough decisions to put yourself in a position to fight. If you carry on working for the bank or the insurance company or wherever it is, you’re not gonna be in the fight. Taking the cozy bill, the salary, and just hoping the problem will not come to you. Because today it’s not you, but tomorrow it will be. You know the frequent rejection, the frequent, but I’m so worried about my kids and the family, you know.

private schools these days cost so much money. I say you really want your kids being, think about it. Isn’t it time to call this charade? You want your kids to go there and learn all sorts of nonsense about transgenderism and hypersexualization of children and crazy ideas about relativism and critical theory and that’s what they’re filling their heads with. Functional education that doesn’t give them any critical thinking capacity. How much are you losing?

Ahmad (01:23:59.97)
if you take them out of one school and into another. I would rather make that kind of cut in my life than face the prospect of effectively being a slave because that’s what you are. Make no mistake, you’re a slave if you are unable to speak. 100%. What you’ve just said, Nick, has given me goosebumps. It’s so powerful what you’ve just said. And it’s a fact, it’s a reality. Most people are indebted unnecessarily. They go on the fancy holidays.

take out the big credit cards and credit, and they should avoid that. Make themselves as immune as possible. Do not get indebted and enslaved to the system. And what you’re describing is the problem is we need strong men and women to say, I’m not gonna deal with this. But the problem is, like you said, in particular, I’d say more so men than women. Men have become weak. Men are soft. And we are in an era of soft, weak men, which is why we’re in this problem today.

If you put yourself in a future time where somebody is asking you, but dad, why didn’t you speak out?

Imagine what you’re going to feel like if the answer is, yeah, you know, I wanted to go on a holiday to Ibiza. Yeah. Every year. Yeah. So there’s a, there’s a meme that I saw and I was like, that’s, that’s going to be me where this dad is sitting on a sofa next to a fireplace. And, you know, someone like maybe one day my children would say, dad, you know what? You fought back. You know, you didn’t care about being canceled and suspended.

and the son is sitting there and he’s got a little thought bubble and goes, my dad’s a fracking legend. That’s what I want. I want my kids to say my dad was a fracking legend. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And let me tell you, the education that they’re getting in watching you have this fight is worth anything that they’re going to get at a school or university. That is worth so much. For a child, watching, watching courage exemplified.

Ahmad (01:26:04.354)
watching intelligence and critical thinking on display, watching engagement with the world on display, seeing reality respected, family respected, community respected, is such a powerful thing. And it’s the exact opposite of what a crazy hour worker in a bank commuting back and forth, unable to say a word, just meet dinner parties where they discuss the sports matches and so on.

that imagine what their children are seeing compared to what yours are. So it’s one of the benefits, I believe, of that kind of independence, is that you actually get to be an exemplar for your own kids and for the kids of the community. It’s fantastic. My last question, my friend. Dude, I love you so much. I wish I had more time. Honestly, I could speak to you forever. I’m really glad you came. Thank you so much. It’s lovely being here.

Last question, you’ve reached a grand old age of 167. You’ve lived a great life. None of this processed food shit crap. Keep the stress off. You’ve got a lot of love in your life. You’ve got this beautiful girlfriend. Anyway, now you’ve got children, grandchildren, everything around you. You’re on your deathbed. You’re gonna meet your maker. Before you pass away, what advice, health or otherwise, would you give to those around you?

Ahmad (01:27:33.318)
The answer that first comes to my mind is around that, something around that independence idea that I’ve just been talking about. But there is actually something greater than that. That was, remember to stay curious. That would be, I’m very clear about that. If I could give one gift to my children, it’s curiosity. And I hate the idea of any person having a life that isn’t filled with curiosity.

So I would put that out there as maybe the candidate. Can I think of any others that trump curiosity and that trump independence?

Ahmad (01:28:14.442)
Well, you know, there’s something in there about the value of trying to correspond with reality. But I think that’s just too broad and too hard to be understood. You know, you get, it kind of comes, I think of the term, you know, keep it real. You know, when I say that, I mean a certain thing and it’s not what, you know, what other people mean. When I say keep it real, I mean correspond with reality, pay attention to what the world is telling you. You know, that’s sort of…

keep it real, it could be my slogan if it wasn’t corrupted by surfers or whatever. You know, but, um, or, um, yeah, so I would go, I would go with the curiosity story. Um, no, I like that. And children are curious. So in a way, don’t forget what it’s like to be a child. Yeah. You saw some of my kids, I can tell you they’re so goddamn curious. Nick, they have questions about everything. That’s beautiful. So many questions.

And honestly, it puts you in the spot and you go, God damn it, that’s a hard question. Yeah. And you have to answer them. And I think we kind of lose that as we get older. Yeah. You see, I haven’t. I know. I can tell. I like I can’t help myself. I often feel like a child. Like I’m sort of now getting into the last half of my commercial career. I’m successful private equity transact that people look up to me. And I still feel like an absolute kid. Like I walk into the room and I often feel like I’m the child there.

I love it. You know, I’m the most experienced person in the room and I feel like the child. I have that feeling like day in and day out. It’s almost a permanent state of the world for me because I have the sense of wonder at the world around me and excitement about problems. So even when things are bad, it’s still the fascination of the problem you’re trying to deal with. Like this thing now, I think we have terrible problems. The leadership of the world right now, the people in power.

are bananas. It’s the worst bunch of ghouls and goons the world has ever seen. We are faced with the biggest problem ever faced by humanity. A truly global problem, an actual real one. It doesn’t require a global solution, by the way. We want lots of different solutions. But that problem, even that serious problem where I really desperately worried about the future of my children, that problem is still fascinating for me. And I want my energy goes into it. And I’m not afraid in that moment. I’m not afraid.

Ahmad (01:30:42.122)
I’m looking at the problem and saying, wow, that’s fascinating, how do I understand this? What’s the thought experiment to perform that might inspire me one day to come up with that light bulb moment that says, this is what we need to do? And if you’ve got loads of people adopting that attitude, remembering that knowledge creation is not a matter of sitting down and doing something logical and sequential. Knowledge creation is everywhere and always a creative and inspired thing.

That’s why we can’t program it. We have no clue. You can’t make a computer create new knowledge. You can’t write creativity into a computer. They can just statistically average the world as it is and do various types of calculations and deductions. And therefore, computers, we don’t know how to program computers to create knowledge. Only humans have this ability. And it’s a kind of inspiration. You can think of it as a divine inspiration or whatever rocks your boat.

But it’s a sort of inspiration, and you need to do those little, you know, like Einstein, imagine I was on the end of a beam of light, or a eureka moment where you jump into the bathroom, into the bathtub, and the water goes up, and you work out how to detect real gold. You know? These steps of inspiration, you can create the conditions where they become more likely, but it, and the first of those, is that sort of attitude.

towards the unknown, the problem. If you see problems as opportunities, I mean it’s an old, tired sort of saying, then you’re in the right place. So I use the word problem in quite a positive sense, solving our problems. It’s like, that’s, in a big way, the meaning of existence is to continually be able, putting yourself in a position to solve problems. And I could do, we could do a whole afternoon of chatting about that sort of idea.

Absolutely. I look at it as where there’s adversity, there lies opportunity. And I had to remind myself of that, you know, that line that I had because I’ve been through so much Nick and that’s another podcast so much I’ve been through. And for about three weeks after my suspension, I was really low and down. I got sick. I was depressed. I was like, Oh God, how am I going to pay my bills? I’ve only got savings for a few months. I said, no, there are opportunities here. I will force myself to get out of this position of comfort that I’ve been in.

Ahmad (01:33:06.774)
be comfortable in the discomfort, and I will make this work. I have fantastic listeners now. I’ve got something like 340 subscribers on my sub stack. I’m gonna make a merch store. I’m gonna offer functional medicine consultations. I will look for sponsorship. I will look for something. Something will happen and I will be okay. And if it means I have to give up surgery, but it means I’m even more free. I’m even more independent. God damn it, I’ll be happy for that. And okay.

You know what, it might mean that I carry on. You saw my car I drove you in. It might mean that I just carry on in that crappy little car. I don’t care. I would rather live in this small little cottage and be free than be indebted and meek. You know what’s gonna happen? What’s gonna happen? The moment you start on that path, you’re gonna find yourself inventing other ways to do that. And you become an entrepreneur. That’s what happens.

Because that action of gaining the independence and of starting to think in terms of, well, actually I can be the master of my destiny, is so generative and you will surprise yourself. You’re going to come up with other ways that you haven’t thought of before. They would never have been on your radar. Those things are going to crop up.

and they’re gonna become sources of fascination and curiosity and excitement in your life and you will be drawn into them and you’ll do them well. Do you know who you remind me of? No. It’s funny, we’re gonna go right to the beginning again. You remind me of Ed Griffin. Right. I mean it. So the reason why is because he’s 92, he’s got a spark on his eye. He told me off air how he’s still like a kid. He’s passionate. He’s not down.

He knows he’s written out all the crap that’s going on and the cabal and how this has been going for centuries. But he’s not down. He’s not depressed about it. He’s a happy warrior and he holds on to his childhood passion and objectiveness and being happy and being that warrior of life. And he talked to me and said, like, look, we’re not going to convince everybody. He goes like, there’s, there’s 1% of people who have that crusader gene who no matter what will fight for the truth.

Ahmad (01:35:29.782)
Because it’s the truth. And when you’re forced to swallow a lie, you go, no, I will not. And you will resist and fight for the truth. And you’ll be supported by about 3% of people who are thought leaders and inspires. And behind that is another 11% or whatever who will be your silent army. And then there’ll be a 15% enemy.

and the middle 70% of them don’t really know what they’re doing. And he said to me, Ahmed, you have that 1% crusader gene. So I’m going to tell you something. Nick Hudson, you have that 1% crusader gene. And I mean it. I like Mr. Griffin already, I tell you. And I like that he uses the phrase crusader gene because I do think, I mean, I’ve thought about that. I think society needs to evolve and it’s something we should all just contemplate a little bit.

To the point, you can’t have the whole of society being crusader gene people. It’ll be chaos. Nobody would ever be able to organize a pizzeria. Is everybody pulling in the, going off and charging at windmills and so on? No. So I think we’ve kind of evolved, and I think even at a biological level, as well as at a social level, we move towards a situation where there’s a small number of mavericks or crusaders.

And a fairly large number of, let’s call them, the pejorative term is sheep, I don’t really like it. But followers or normative, normies or whatever, that is probably a stable situation that you have to have because you need people, you can’t have everybody running around and questioning everything all the time. So that’s, also when you contemplate that, you realize, oh, okay, well, so this is also not an unusual situation that we’re in a minority, there’s nothing to be afraid of. It was always thus.

You know, so that’s the kind of idea that’s important to, I think, hold in mind because then you realize, oh well, whenever any other big problem has been moved, it’s been moved by a couple of Crusader warriors working against a slightly stupid or very stupid Borg. One thing that drives me mad is people saying, but they’re so clever, you know, look at what they’ve done, they’ve babbled to manipulate everybody. No, I think it’s easy to manipulate. Don’t give them credit. It’s easy. Yeah.

Ahmad (01:37:50.434)
If you’ve been able to steal enough resources from the electorate that voted you in, then yeah, it’s easy to do that. That is not particularly clever. And so yeah, we just don’t give them that much credit because that also makes it, you then afraid to think of how you can beat them. Yeah, don’t be afraid. Yeah. So conquer the fear of independence, conquer the fear of taking responsibility, conquer the fear of shouldering obligation.

and conquer the fear of your enemy being geniuses, evil geniuses. It’s just not the case. They’re all somewhat dumb. I think it’s a great place to end. Everyone, I really hope you enjoyed this. I really look forward to speaking to you, Nick, and you haven’t failed to deliver. It was epic. I love you so much. And yeah, everybody listening, thank you so much. And just going back to some of the early stuff we were talking about, don’t give into hate.

Don’t give into fear. I love everyone. I have no skin in the game. I’m not a Muslim anymore. I just believe in God and I love humanity. We love Israelis. We love Palestinians. We love Christians, Muslims, Jews, everybody. Don’t let the bastards divide us because they’re the enemy. Fine words. I couldn’t agree with you more. All right. Bye everybody. Thank you so much. Yeah, cause that’s where…