Jeff Webster, Co-Founder of Hunter & Gather, Talks About His Health Journey

When I realised the harmful effects that seed oils have on the body I was gutted that I couldn’t find any mayonnaise that wasn’t made from a seed oil. Did you know that all commercially available mayonnaise is in fact 75% seed oil? A jar of toxic junk. It was my wife who discovered an online company selling olive oil and avocado oil mayonnaise. It was called Hunter & Gather and it was delicious!

I reached out to Jeff Webster to talk about why he set up the company along with his co-founder and partner Amy Moring.

Jeff Webster in his early 20s started his journey of health and wellness. Now in his 30s he and Amy are on a mission to change the foodscape. I feel slightly envious, I only discovered what it actually meant to be healthy in my early 40s, which is only 5 years ago.

I had a great chat with Jeff talking about everything from squatting when going to the loo to healthy diets.

I hope you enjoy the conversation and please try out their foods, which range from oils, sauces and supplements. Links below.

Please note – I was not paid for this podcast!

I hope you enjoy the conversation.

Ahmad (00:00.078)
What were they the podcast like? A lot of them on Zoom. It’s not the same. Yes, I’m not sure if this is the first interview in person. Not interview, conversation. It’s the difference. I said interview, podcast. Podcast. Yeah, it’s funny. It was, it’s a garden office. And I was like, you’ve seen my house, it’s tiny. Like with three screaming kids, there’s nowhere I can talk. I’ve hit the record button by the way. And

So I wanted somewhere, you know, I could have guests physically come and sit down with me. It’s so different to Zoom. Like I did lots of Zooms like we’re locked down and the pandemic and it’s not the same. It’s just not the same. It’s nice face to face and eyeballing and feeling your energy and just a lot more natural conversation. Anyway, thanks for coming. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Finally lined it up after a few, few weeks. Yeah. Now worked out quite well. Wasn’t that difficult? How far did you have to drive?

an hour and 20 minutes. Yeah. Over and over in Essex. So we’re just in the middle of moving office right now. So we’ve got a fair bit on. You’ve got a lot of things going on. Yeah. Spinning a lot of plates, trying to change the food industry. So I love it. So how old are you? 32. You’re a young man. We have a snapper. Yeah. Ambitious. And your co founder. She’s 32 as well. No, she’s 31. She’s a year below. I don’t know anything. Are you guys a couple?

We’ve been together for 15 years in January. Yeah. We met as 16 year old, 15 year olds at Romford Ice Rink of all places. I love it. I thought there was something there. So tell me what made you think we’re going to do this line of food and because it is very different. It’s very different from what’s available in the stores. And you see my pantry, it’s full of your stuff. Oh, yes. There’s a shelf dedicated to our products. Yeah. Like so.

What made you start off on this journey? Cause there must’ve been some kind of health awareness. You didn’t just suddenly wake up and go, right, I’m going to make, you know, seed oil free stuff. So where did it start? Well, it was around the same sort of time when I decided that squatting on the toilet was the best thing to do rather than sitting down as we discussed yourself off air. Yeah. You, you, you need to explain that you just demonstrated an excellent deep squat. And I was very jealous. I can stay down there for a good 45 minutes.

Ahmad (02:29.218)
Holy fricking Molly. Yeah. So it was around 2012 when I really started to understand what the start of the story, the genesis of the story is a chap called Phil Sadler, who is a physiotherapist, a very good physiotherapist based over in Essex. And I was going into my final year at university where I was studying building surveillance. So obviously it’s a natural progression into owning a food and supplements company. And I started to run, I went into going

go run a marathon to help me have something on my CV.

Ahmad (03:04.918)
And I started to train, not really run before, was pretty good at it, but got injured, had like some sort of IT band issue. So I went to see Phil and we sat down and Phil said to me, Jeff, what are you eating? And I said, you know, I’m fueling myself with pasta, rice, potatoes, carbohydrates, leukazade, et cetera, et cetera. Ouch. And there’s a 21, 22 year old, and I was sitting there, he said, you shouldn’t be eating that stuff. And within kind of elite sports, elite athletes is a big secret that-

them guys don’t really feel themselves in that. And he said to me, go home, watch this video by Gary Torbs who we all know. It was called Why We Get Fat. And it was Andreas Enfeld, I think his name is, the Diet Doctor founder who was interviewing Gary because his book Why We Get Fat was launched at that time. And for some reason I went home and watched the video. It was 45 minutes long. And within that, it kind of just opened my mind to a different paradigm of how

our bodies can fuel themselves and how carbohydrates aren’t in the beer or an endle. And it just, that was the point where I started to question perceived conventional wisdom, um, in relation to food. And then obviously that was my gateway to then start questioning many other narratives, um, within the world over the past 10, 11, 12 years. Like, um, so yeah, I graduated, went into my career as a, as a

four or five years doing that. And I was actually really interested in graduate entry medicine. And I actually become really obsessed with how can I get into graduate entry medicine with a degree and was looking into it and trying to source like volunteer and work within hospitals and all sorts of try to navigate my way into that world. Because I thought, because essentially I wanted to work with people and help them see what I saw. Because I adopted a paleo like diet.

basically in 2012 and that changed a lot of things for me. I’d been a teenager and a kid who had eczema, acne, IBS before I even knew what IBS was. There was a particular occasion in 2008 when I had to order an ambulance. I had to call an ambulance because I was in so much GI distress. It felt like I was, for any what I could describe, being stabbed in the stomach as a 16 year old on the way back from an interview at Ikea in Lakeside for a part time job.

Ahmad (05:31.15)
So that’s quite memorable. And got taken to hospital, put on morphine overnight. And no one could really explain to me what was going on. It was just like, oh, it’s just one of those things. And as a 16 year old, I guess, but then even then I thought, something’s not quite right here. And in retrospect, I’d actually started to eat malted brown bread, healthy brown bread, because I was going to the gym at the time. Isn’t it funny how you look back at all the things you thought were healthy, like,

wholemeal bread and malted and now you just go, what the hell? You’re like, no, so little. Yeah, so little. You start realising that it’s just so much BS out there. And. So, yeah, I adopted a paleo low carb diet. My partner, Amy, we’d got our first flat together and we’d travelled to Australia and seen the devastation of the

the Western diet of the Aboriginal peoples and the traditional peoples. And we thought there’d been some sort of war because there was people of like amputees, young amputees. And then we found out it was like metabolic disease and there was diabetes, type two diabetes, and there was young people that was in significant, like significantly poor situation. Um, so we kind of learned about that. And there was this slow awakening within me of how can we, how can we transcend this knowledge that we’ve accumulated as

bright-eyed bushy-tailed 23, 24 year olds, typical millennials wanting to change the world. Amy went into her career working in sales for Mars, Mars Petcare, and she was selling the likes of whiskers and pedigree. And she got firsthand experience of their scientific institution that is utilized to be able to essentially indoctrinate the veterinary practice. Yeah. By saying, you know, this is, this is the

the nutritional vet back to scientific foods that you should be, um, feeding your pets. And she got, that’s really weird that you mentioned that because yesterday my podcast came out with Roger Meacock, a vet, natural vet talking and he was like lambasting the whole nonsense about pet food and the vets supporting it and advocating. It’s like dentists saying have fluoride in your toothpaste.

Ahmad (07:52.554)
Your dentist says take flu right in your toothpaste and it’s great for your enamel and it’s all yes. And it’s the same with the vets and actually starts with veterinary ecologies and the big vet food, the big, I mean, it’s the same companies that give us food and the animals food. They’ve totally indoctrinated and brainwashed the professions. And we’re feeding our animals diets that aren’t really their natural diets. Not species appropriate. So I think the big, big red flag for Amy was when she

saw big fats of caramel going into whiskers, pet food. No way. Yeah. Shut up. And no one had any answers for it. So she was at a factory tour and no one had any answers. That’s of caramel and whiskey. So they’re literally getting, Roger was saying that they make the pets deliberately addicted just like they do. Yeah. Highly palatable. Just like, yeah.

Ahmad (08:50.922)
In other countries such as the US, we started to see that there was some really incredible products coming through. And I was aware of like Kate Shanahan, for instance, back in 2014, when she talked about seed oils and vegetable oils and how are these, you know, it’s an unbelievably toxic food. So we could see some innovation happening in other countries, but it wasn’t happening in Europe or in the UK. And again, a high degree of naivety and ignorance. And about.

you know, 10,000 pounds in savings. Whereas I think we can produce a product and that can be our vehicle for our message. That can be our protest on shelves, supermarkets and retail. Yeah. And that’s how we can change the world in our own little way. So in our lane, in our food lane, let’s own that. Let’s own that lane and let’s do as well as we can. There’s fantastic doctors and nutritional therapists and.

content creators, they were called bloggers back then, who educate people, but there’s no good products out there that can take the space of the big H’s in the mayonnaise space. So we was like, hey, let’s create one without C-dolls. It’s only got four ingredients, super simple really, and see where it can go. And that was six years ago. Well, I can tell you right now, my daughters are very grateful because they love mayonnaise with everything. And the thing is,

we try and do as much of our cooking ourselves. So, you know, I bake my own bread, we cook from scratch, everything’s from scratch. You won’t find any rice crispies or, you know, Kellogg’s corn flakes in my pantry. And, you know, you just saw what we’ve got, you know, we try and use whole foods. But mayonnaise is one of those things like, you know, it’s difficult to just make it up and whip it up. I mean, I guess if you make it regularly, you can, but.

you know, when I found out 75 to 80% of mayonnaise is actually a rapeseed oil or vegetable, I was shocked. And I know you use the word food. I’d say it’s not really food. It’s like this lubricant fluid. I mean, it’s just this toxic gunge that we’re putting in our bodies that like 150 years ago, it was unknown. The human body didn’t know what this thing was. Our bodies not designed. Like if we’ve been on this planet, I mean, Graham Hancock talks about, you know, us being here for a half a million, a million years.

Ahmad (11:13.778)
species specific food. We’ve not had the seed oil business up until 150 years ago. It’s shocking. We’ve got an ebook on our website that we created about three years ago, so we need to revise that actually. Um, but we’ve got a clock face, a 12 hour clock face and seed oils literally represents about four seconds when you look at the evolutionary timeframe. And that’s a very conservative timeframe. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it’s not a food. It’s a toxic substance, isn’t it? Um, it was initially created as a

an engineer and lubricant. And you know, there’s fantastic historians that are unpacking more and more of the story. And I’ve spoken to other source brands because I’ve kind of got one foot in the health and wellness camp, one foot in the food space, because we’re playing in the food space and we’re trying to disrupt big food and we’re trying to create momentum and change. So you need to be aware of the rules. You need to be aware of who the players are. So speaking to other food brands and source brands in particular,

stands out, they shall not be named. I was speaking to their founder and he said to me, Hey, I’ve got a nutritional, um, a nutritional degree. I think he’s got more put the sports performance degree. And he said, no one ever told me about these C doors being bad during my studies. Yeah, of course they wouldn’t. Of course they wouldn’t. Um, I’ve looked at the scientific literature and I can’t find anything that’s compelling enough for us to take out C doors from our, from our recipes.

And I think number three, it would cost 10 times more for us to use non-cedars in our products. And so we took the liberty of putting together like a 10,000 word document just recently, a white paper, you could call it. And we had one of the best health researchers in the world actually help us to do so. And it’s a very robust document. And I sent it to him because he said, once you finish it, send it over to us. And guess what? I’ve not heard from him. Of course not. They never do.

You know, when you challenge people with the truth, quite often they’ll either just ignore you and not engage with you or they’ll try in some way of discrediting you or finding some argument that you didn’t even start like a use a straw man argument or something. It just, that’s the way it works. It’s funny. So I was walking down the sh** aisles of the supermarket once and I saw cold press, organic

Ahmad (13:40.374)
rapeseed oil, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, really? And this is in the early days when I was trying to suss things out. And I went, well, that sounds good on your local, you know, organic and cold press and not conventional heat treatment and blah, blah. So I rang them, I rang them up. They had a little number. I said, I want to ask you about how you produce your seed oils. Do you use these chemicals and do you use these degumming and deodorizing and coloring agents and all that kind of.

And she went, Oh, I need to get someone to contact you back. I went, don’t you know? No, no, I don’t know the stuff. No one answered back. So I rang them again the next day and she went, Oh, I remember you. Yeah, yeah, sorry. Someone was going to get back to you. I’ll get them to call you back in an hour. Never did. And being quite stubborn, persistent person, I did it again a third time. And they just didn’t answer my number then. So I kind of sussed out, it’s all a load of garbage. But listen, I want you to tell me,

why seed oils are bad, but I’m going to give you a little summary first of what I know. It’s amazing how many people, doctors, you know, quite smart people turn around to me and go, what is it with you and your seed oils? Like what’s wrong with seed oils? What’s, you know, like first of all, like even as a kid, when someone said vegetable oil or sunflower oil or rapes it all, I used to be like, what? Like my, my natural was like, what? Like

Sun flour, there’s no oil in this. You squeeze it to smithereens and you might get a little bit of grease. How much do you need to squeeze, how much of this product to get even a little bit of oil? So one, it’s not like a natural oil that you find that humans consume. I mean, there’s other ways of getting oils and fats. And then the second thing is to actually, for the process, it’s so industrialized and heavily processed. You have machine rolling, you have heat treatment, you use…

petrochemicals to extract the oil out. You have deodorizing because it smells rancid. You have, it’s gray, so you need to add color to it to give you that golden natural sheen. So it’s not, none of this is natural. And fundamentally, even the chemicals, the oils within them are not natural oils that we would normally use. They’re high in linoleic acid or whatever. And these are not good for us. I mean, you know, people use words like poof on stuff like that.

Ahmad (16:02.082)
But these are the fats and oils that are actually detrimental to our health and bad for us. And they cause an increase in inflammatory state, lead to things like obesity, insulin resistance, heart disease, Alzheimer’s. I mean, everything. Am I on the right track here? It’s a good summary. Um, I class myself as a generalist, so I don’t, I’m not an expert in any particular topic. So I’ve neither. Yeah. A good high level summary of C.

you know, that the linoleic acid and Omega six and how the ratio is so far away from how we’ve evolved as a species. Yeah, exactly. It’s almost like we’re in, I think someone really explained it well that in the winter time, particularly in like the Northern hemisphere or the further away you get from the equator, you’d find things such as walnuts, et cetera, when you come into this time of the year, like kind of October, November time, and they’re high in Omega six, which puts you into a state of being able to actually accumulate.

fat within your fat stores more so I believe. Yeah. And that’s when you would find a more omega-6 rich profile fats. Whereas nowadays we consume it 24-7. And you couple that with the light environment or the, you know, the poor disrupted light environment. You couple that with the sugar environment. You couple that with the lack of movement opportunities that exist. You couple this with, well not even coupling is it, it’s just lumping it all together into one.

the lack of community, the lack of sleep opportunities. And you’ve got this whole kind of deftly mix of non-ancestral, ancestral and behaviors. So the seed oils, we’re not saying that if you’d stop consuming seed oils, it’s the panacea to all of the issues in the world. But I think it’s a big lever to pull for sure. I understand. No, no, I’m with you. And then what is actually incredible is how

When it comes to processed food, they come in different shapes and sizes. So like jars of mayonnaise or, you know, fizzy drink. Try not to say the brands or a dry packet or something. But actually, when you look at the ingredients, it’s amazing how many of them are basically carbohydrates, fruit, toast, corn syrup, inverted glucose syrup or whatever, rapeseed oil, vegetable oil is like the main the majority. Although they’re solid liquid, you know,

Ahmad (18:31.842)
pretty much the same and it’s just in different combinations, variations with a scattering of other stuff. And none of these are really nutritionally healthy for you. So like I look around me and I go never have human beings so well fed, but nutritionally depleted and you know, deficient and key essential minerals. We’re not healthy. We’re just fat and sick and unhealthy. And I think sea dolls are a big

component of that, that whole inflammatory cycle and, and that cascade. And you’re right. I mean, just, you know, having seed, all free mayonnaise is going to change your life. You have to take into factor all these other things, but you know, you said a line about my chickens. Can you just say that now? And I’ll come back to that. Yeah. Chickens. I saw a meme on Instagram the other day that chickens are the gateway drug to conspiracy theories. Well we’ve got

a lot of chickens, so we’ve got a lot of gateways to the conspiracy theory. So basically what I’m trying to say is when you start going down this wellness lifestyle, you start looking at every facet of your life. For sure. So for us, it was, you know, we need to eat less. We need to eat less processed food. We need to eat less sugar and carbs and hey, we need to cut out, you know, seed oils. Hey, we should start growing our own food. We should have chickens. It’s just not. Hey, we’re.

Where’s our water coming from? Is tap water good for you? Maybe you should not do that. And then suddenly grounding, what is grounding? And it just, the momentum builds up and you keep finding ways that you can improve yourself. When you were coming in on the driveway, I was talking about how giving up coffee. I miss that cozy warm ritual like you were saying. But you’re just constantly on the go looking for the next way.

to biohack and return to, like you said, your normal ancestral lifestyle and make yourself healthy. Yes, peeling back the layers that have come between our physiology, our biology, our spirit, and how corporations lead us to live our lives. Yeah. Peel away all the propaganda and the BS. Yeah, essentially. And of course it causes me dissonance as well, personal dissonance that we actually produce a product that exists within

Ahmad (20:55.558)
um, an industry, but we see that as our way, our vehicle to be able to transcend a message and be a protest to, to the status quo and how can we disrupt that conventional wisdom? So as I say, the mayonnaise isn’t your panacea to be in the most kick ass version of yourself, but it’s going to help you get there. So listen, tell me you said when you started on this journey that, you know, you realized.

several narratives were just not true or the other things that you discovered or the other health things or whatever that you realize weren’t what you thought they were. How long do we have? Long as you like. So squatting on the toilet, so sitting down on the toilet isn’t natural. I’m glad we got to this. Tell me. Yeah. So around the same time I became aware of paleo low carb.

I also become aware of a small muscle and I’m sure you can help with the biology of this. But there’s a small muscle that actually restricts how we go to poop. And if you’re in a squat position or like a hunter gatherer kind of deep squat position, that’s the optimal position to be able to go poop. Plop, plop, plop. Yeah. And it’s about your body’s anatomy. And if you look at the bowel and the rectum and the shape of it, and if you go to

if anyone’s traveled and been to like the Far East or Indian subcontinent, you’ll see those toilets and I’ll be honest with you. I kind of go, Oh, because I’m just programmed that, but it’s the deep squat is better for you and healthy for you. So we’ve got a standard toilet and what I do is the kids have got a tiny little stool and what I do is I put my feet on the stool to try and recreate that kind of squat. Yeah. So when I found out about this,

back 10, 11 years ago, can’t believe we’re talking about this by the way. I was a very poor student and graduate and I was aware of something called the squatty potty, but it was a few hundred pounds and I didn’t invest. So I learned to be able to squat on a toilet with, with the seat and I have broken a few toilet seats in my time. Well, you don’t, you were our toilet seats already broken courtesy of my middle child. She swings, she swings and rotates and it’s like every single time we fix the toilet seat, she just breaks again.

Ahmad (23:17.014)
this time around, I’m not fixing it. I’m just, just be careful. I went to lift up. I was like, Oh yeah. Yeah. On a serious note, that was one thing I was like, wow, that’s, that’s a huge change. Um, and also what we put on our feet as well. Um, so cushioned structured shoes, um, that squash our feet together and don’t allow the big toe to do its job. And essentially our feet now exists within an environment that is preventing our feet from being feet.

And I think a lot of slips and trips and falls in the elderly are probably, of course it’s down to a lack of strength and mobility, but I think also where they’re disconnected from the ground. Um, so that was something that I changed in 2013, transitioned to barefoot shoes, transitioned to barefoot running. I’ve since run marathons and a 50 mile race in barefoot, barefoot shoes, barefoot style shoes. I like bare shit.

is good. Especially when you’re squatting. So basically, um, absolutely. So the thing is, you know, I, I said when you came into the house, oh, we, we take our shoes off and one it’s because you, you know, what’s on this pavements and all the dirt and everything. You don’t want to be taking that into your house. And so I actually spend a lot of my time barefoot and my kids barefoot. I just want to keep saying bullshit now. Um, and

And one, it’s really good because you’ve got that proprioception, you’re grounding, you’re using the intrinsic foot muscles in your feet, which are so important to help keep your toes straight, to maintain the arch of your foot, all of that kind of stuff, give you the solid foundation on which to stand and walk. And also we kind of like spending a lot of the time on the floor. Like we sit down, you know, when we’re eating, we’ve got a little coffee table, we sit down there and we chat and.

It’s just like, you know, almost Japanese style. Yeah. It’s brilliant. Yeah. We quite liked that. We like being close to the ground, not high up. And, um, yeah, it was funny. You came in and you did this little squat. I was like, Whoa, wow. I’m jealous. And then that’s where he started talking about stuff. Yeah. We, we traveled to like Vietnam and Thailand and Kenya. And we’ve seen how those more traditional peoples live. And she was allegedly over a hundred years old, but she was kind of very mobile and able to squat and

Ahmad (25:35.838)
and move around. And that was a big eye opener. That was around 2015. And we, we realized how frail and vulnerable the elderly are in, in our Western cultures. So sad to see. I mean, we’ve got to the point where we put buttons on the boots of our car, on the trunks of our car to press for it to go down. I know. What is wild? I know shoulder mobility. Oh, it’s just this, this constant striving for comfort.

protection and safety is. And people say, you know, about look at our lifespan, look at the longevity. So my dad had a care home for like the last 15 years. OK, or maybe, yeah, something like that, if not a little bit longer. And yeah, there’s people living to like 75, 80, 81, but not good quality living. So what I’m trying to say is like, yeah, they’ll live, but their bed, they’re

you know, house band or need a Zimmer frame. They’ve got severe dementia and they’re being fed. And you don’t want your last decade of life to be like that. I don’t know about you, but I want to be jumping around and bright as a button and, you know, you know, sparkle my eye. And then one day just go to sleep and not wake up. I don’t want to be deteriorating and dribbling and drooling and pissing my pants. Live long and drop dead, right? And live long and drop dead. So like I’ve got I’ve got this these anatomical

Nice. Yeah. They’re called ultra LTR and they’re so wide. They’ve got a zero drop. Um, I’ll be honest with you. I put in a little three millimeter wedge because I’ve just been so used to wearing shoes and I’ve got tight cast. I need transition. You can’t just go from here zero to zero to zero to hero, zero to bat shit, bare feet, bare shit, whatever. Yeah, exactly. Look, because the thing is that when I did start running in these,

Oh my God, my Achilles were killing me after just like one mile. I was like what? And I had to put the little wedge in. It was five millimeters. Now it’s three. I’m just doing it very slowly because I spent my whole lifetime in shoes with a heel to toe drop offset of five, six millimeters. You can’t just reverse it. And it’s amazing how that fine little two millimeters here and there can make such a difference. But, you know, going back to the way you’re talking about your shoes and then your feet, muscles not being developing properly.

Ahmad (27:59.55)
It’s simply a case of if you don’t use it, you lose it. So take for example, your hands, right? Not even gloves. Imagine I put them in mittens. I put your hands in mittens and I kept them in there for like months. And then I said, all right, you can, Jeff, take them out now. Let’s see how well, how dexterous, how mobile your fingers will be. They’ll be like that. Oh yeah. That reminded me of something. I went on a blind date once. She had a hook hand.

I’m not lying. Seriously. Do you want to hear the whole story? Hit me a bit. So basically, I don’t think I’ve told this one. So, oh man, I just, my life has just been so weird. So basically I just got divorced, right? And I’m free now I’m on the market and this guy at work goes, dude, we need to hook you up. You’re such a good cat. You’re like a great guy. I’m like, Oh, thanks man. And you know, we’ve been working together for a few months and we’re getting on really well.

And he goes, right, listen, I know just the right person. It’s my sister’s friend. She’s really lovely and sweet. You’ll love her. Let’s meet up in this cafe. So we meet up and a nice bridge of all places. And I meet up with him first and it’s all nice. And he goes, oh, look, here they are. And this absolutely stunning girl comes in. And I’m like, oh yeah, oh yeah. And he goes, yeah, that’s my sister in the front, the really good looking girl. And the one in the back is her friend. And I’m like,

she’s not that good looking in my head. So straight away I’m like, what? They said, judge your book, where it’s cover. Yeah. So they sit down and I was like, be nice, like, you know, give her a chance. She didn’t laugh at any of my jokes. So that’s just a no, no. Right. I’m sorry. I’m not saying I’m a comedian, but I’m really relatively funny. And like, it was like nothing. And, um, and then, and then her hand came out. She was like covering it up and I, and like,

it came out and it was like a claw funny hooked hand thing. And I was like, Oh, like, okay, I can maybe look past that, but you don’t laugh at my jokes. You don’t, you’re not really that pretty. And then that was the last time I had a blind date. It wasn’t for you. No. So anyway, so yeah, that’s what happens if you, if you don’t use your feet and that’s how people’s feet are and they got plants are fascia and they got flat arches and all sorts of stuff. What is the claw toes hammer toes? Yeah. Um, bunions, bunions.

Ahmad (30:23.022)
They’re just not using their muscles. Yeah. And they fall over it easy as well. Yeah. So you want to keep moving. You want to be using your muscles, especially as you get older, you want to do strength training. So a lot of people, I don’t think really train properly. They do a lot of running. I run, which is great. I’m a runner, but all they do is run. So that’s like saying I eat apples because apples are really not good for you and healthy. And I’m like, what else do you eat? Apples. Anything else? No. On the weekend I have two apples.

And it’s like, that’s not a great diet. You need a really mixed diet of exercise as well as food. But actually the biggest bang for your buck is strength training. And when I gave you a hug and say hi, I could feel you were quite muscular. So you obviously do quite a lot. Checking me out, hey? Yeah, I’m checking you out. I check everybody out. I’m always checking everyone out. That’s part of my job is a doctor and surgeon. I’m always looking, observing. So yeah, I mean, that’s really, really important. So barefoot, using that and your deep squat, the toilet. What else?

Uh, the sun. Yeah. So not being scared of the sun, the big orange thing in the sky. Um, so part of my health journey too, um, had severe cystic acne as a teenager. I was offered Roaccutane at the age of 14. Um, but I was, I was fairly good at football at the time. And your skin looks great right now. It’s not as good as it could be. And I’ll go into it, go into that, but, um, was offered.

Rhoacutane at 14 was told about the side effects. Um, I was trying to get into like the county football team at the time and didn’t want it to impact my physical abilities. So I declined it. What were the side effects? You’re aware of Rhoacutane. Yeah. It’s, um, it’s essentially a higher vitamin A like overdose as such. Um, I knew it was something like that, but I wasn’t really sure. Yeah. It’s, it’s a really severe, um, your lips peel, you need blood test every four weeks, um, you can.

females like literally cannot get pregnant while taking the drug. Oh, wow. Severe birth defects. It was banned in the US of all places or advertising for it was banned. One of something, something like it. It’s associated with suicides. It’s it leads to. Organ damage, it leads to great. I really want to take this product. It’s a fantastic, sound really safe and effective drug. Yeah.

Ahmad (32:45.558)
But I became desperate when I was 20 or 21 at uni and I took it. And you know, you wish you know what you know now, you wish you know them, right? And one of them scenarios. So I took the drug very short period of times, three or six months and it did help with the acne. But when I look back at what root cause and I should have worked on gut health and stuff like that, but I didn’t realize. Anyways, it leaves you really sensitive to the sun.

So it took me around seven or eight years to actually be able to tolerate the sun in a normal way. And so for me, understanding that sun has got messages, it’s not just for a tan, it’s the messages that come from the sun and kind of natural rhythms. And then to understand that the sun cream lotion industry.

The sun cream lotion industry is terrible. Full of horrible chemicals. Yeah. And there’s possibly even carcinogenic chemicals. Yeah, there’s constant recalls, particularly in the US with these products. And essentially it’s another toxic insult on the skin. Coming back to seed oils. I’m sure I read somewhere that if you have seed oils and get in the sun, that’s why you’re more likely to burn and have problems.

And actually what you want is a slow exposure to the sun. And if you think about it, if like in the old days when we didn’t have electricity, our days and nights dictated how we function. We’d get up at the crack of dawn. We’d then go to bed at night when it gets dark. So our circadian rhythm was in tune with the natural rhythm of the world. And as the sun, as the days got darker, we got less light, but as the days slowly got.

brighter and longer, we get more light. And it was gradual process. So we didn’t burn, our body just got used to it. But now we spend most of our time inside and then we go on a holiday and we’re in sun. And yeah, of course you’re gonna burn because you don’t go outside. But the truth is even here, this sun is still better than nothing. And it’s that gradual exposure, making sure you’re always exposed to the sun. Well, there’s highly credible people that are saying if you get the early morning infrared light from sunrise, that helps to preserve the melanin.

Ahmad (35:04.75)
within the skin and the body and you can preserve that solar callus. Again, I’m by no means an expert in that field whatsoever. I’ve got a very small understanding, but an awareness of it. Listen, mate, between you and me and this dumb orthopod, we’re just fine. I’m just, I’m just some guy that grew up on a council estate in Dagenham. I’m just a guy that grew up in a council estate in Govan. So great. We’ll figure it out someday. Exactly. But the sun. Yep. Fantastic. Embrace the sun. Don’t be scared of it. If you

If your solar callus isn’t strong enough for you to not burn, then put some clothes on for God’s sake. Like you don’t need to put these chemical reactions onto your skin because that’s essentially what most conventional sunscreens are. They’re a chemical reaction that block the UVB rays, I believe. So we actually come across natural sunscreen in Australia when we was out there, like zinc oxide. And of course it’s not aesthetically pleasing because it turns your skin really white. But there was one actually that was blended with cacao.

and it give you a slight nice brown shimmer, which is nice. So I think that was another big thing for me. Yeah. So we’ve done that. We transition to that. It’s funny how the conversations of my wife were like, we need to stop seed oils. And it’s like, why do we need to stop? And I said, you know, the reasons and she was like, OK, let’s stop. And then said, we need to stop fluoride and our toothpaste and she’s like, why? And I was like, because it’s.

an element that’s not found in the human body. There’s not one physiological process that requires it. It’s a toxic chemical. It’s a byproduct of the aluminium industry and it’s just BS. And then she was like, OK. And then, you know, I’ve had Jeff Payne on my podcast about fluoride toxicity. And it’s just mind blowing the fact that so many people, even now to this day, are brushing their teeth with this poison. And if you look at the back of a toothpaste, it says, if you ingest, do not ingest.

If you ingest contact your toxic center or whatever. And you’re like, what? I was like, what? And what kid is careful? You know, the kids is squeeze it out and then eat it and swallow it. It’s just garbage. So then, you know, and then when I mentioned the sun tan thing, she was just like on it straight away. Okay, cool, done the research. And she’s quite fair. And she does, if she gets in the sun really hot, burn too much, but I’ve noticed actually, if she does it slowly, she gets a really nice golden red color and she doesn’t burn it’s all about. And

Ahmad (37:23.242)
You know, take me for example, you think I’m immune to burning. I’m not. We went to Portugal. My mom took us out on holiday this summer and I was out in the sea all day. I got burnt like crazy and my mistake was thinking, no, I’ll be fine. My body will be able to tan quickly and get darker. I got burnt bad, but it’s that gradual exposure increasing and decreasing and not just suddenly flooding. But light is important. I don’t know if you know Jack Cruz. I had him on the podcast.

He was saying we’re just beings of light, magnet, and water, and it blew my mind. And I really kind of like now understand why in the past people worship the sun. It was a life giver. Everything in this planet is driven by the sun, the energy that comes in. And it’s all about the energy of the sun being changed and transmuted into food, plants, animals, meat, and that drives us and fuels us and makes us what we are. It’s kind of insane.

Yeah, there’s a multi-billion dollar industry that promotes being scared of it. What’s that? The sunscreen industry. Yeah, multi-billion, yeah, 100%. It’s bonkers. It is bonkers. So liberate yourself of that and embrace the sun. The amount of times I go out and just watch the sun rise.

Phenomenal. What else? Yeah, so fluoride in toothpaste. We use the same toothpaste by the way. Shout out to Allodent.

Ahmad (38:52.106)
The mouth. Mouthwash, that was another one. Yeah, don’t use that stuff. So yeah, while we’re on toothpaste, I’m a patient of Dr. Mike Mu. Have you heard of muing? No. So Dr. Mike Mu is an orthodontist, but practices orthotropics. So his father, Professor John Mu. Oh, I’ve heard of these two. Yes. And they’ve also been in trouble.

because of what their views are. Like all good people. Not to dissimilar story. Yeah, I know, tell me. He’s currently got a court battle going on right now with the British Dental Association, I think it is. For some malpractice, it’s essentially where, he’s a threat to industry. He’s a threat to the, again, another multi-billion dollar industry, the orthodontics industry, by putting braces into people’s mouths and extracting healthy teeth. And that all stems back.

from, you know, Western A Price, for instance. Yes. He observed this back in 1930s. Fantastic book, by the way, is it nutritional and physical degeneration? Something like that, yeah. You can get the free online PDF version of it, or you can buy it from any good bookstore. But, you know, Western A Price observed different cultures around the world. Those that were subjected to seed oils, sugars, grains, essentially non-traditional foods, and how their nutritional deficiencies and eating…

essentially mushy foods were leading to malformation of the jaw and the palate and the tongue. So essentially, John Mu learned that from Weston A. Price. Mike’s kind of taken over the reins and he practices that and he changes the shape of your palates and your face and how you use your tongue. And I’m one of his oldest patients. So typically he works with children that are between the ages of three and…

I mean, I was three and 12, I guess. So that was quite an interesting story, how I managed to make one patient. I love that, because that is true, because what I know of this, my kids are treated by Seb, the natural dentist, and they’ve got the gum shield things that they wear at night. And we need to be a bit more diligent practicing the exercises and the breathing. But basically, one, you wanna be breathing for your nose the whole time. You wanna be breathing for your diaphragm. That’s much healthier for you.

Ahmad (41:16.402)
Um, and it does affect your palate. It’s just like what we’re talking about the foot. If you don’t use it, you lose it. So you can tell with the people with the recessed jaw, it’s called micrognathia. Um, the, the very prominent nose. Um, you know, and I do spot and look and my kids sometimes go, daddy, look at all. No, no, no. Quiet. Stop that. Mouth breather. Yeah. Mad breather. I’m like, I love it. You have to be very careful what you say to your kids because they just, you know,

They’re like speakers, they just like don’t realize. There’s no filter, is there? There’s no filter. I’m like, ah, slow down. And, but yeah, that’s a major problem. And it’s like you said, the mushy food, they’re not using the mandible. They’re not using the jaw muscles. So it just doesn’t develop properly. And there’s some people who might say, well, who cares? Well, actually it does cause problems. It causes massive problems. Yeah, well, sleep apnea being one of them. So there’s not enough space for our tongue. So the cross section, our faces have got longer, narrower. There’s not enough cross section to accommodate the tongue.

That’s why people that are thin as well also develop sleep apnea. And you know sleep apnea is not just, oh, my partner snoring at night. It’s a lot more than that. The problem is you’re literally having periods where you’re not breathing and your oxygen level drops. That actually damages your brain 100%. You’re getting brain damage. And it also drives all these hormonal feedback mechanisms. So you end up with hypertension, you end up with diabetes, increased risk of cancer, heart disease. I mean, it’s bad.

I mean, it’s not just you’re making some snowing noises at night. And this is why Mike is deemed as a threat to an industry, because he’s saying that he believes that the root cause of most modern chronic ailments comes down to. I need to have him on. You need to have Mike on the podcast. Absolutely. So he sounds like a like a dental version of me. So basically, you know, he’s advocating like non.

interventional methods of proper dental hygiene and development so that you don’t need to have your teeth removed, you don’t need to have braces and it is a big industry, it’s a massive industry and that is definitely going to be a threat to a lot of people so then the alternative is you know you have to silence them, you have to you can’t have those kind of people and then

Ahmad (43:41.738)
And so there was a delivery man who just decided to come right up to the studio. And so I’m the same, you know, I only operate on 5% of my patients. You know, my patients come to see me and say, Oh, I’ve got achilles tendon pain, or I’ve got plantar fasciitis. Instead of saying, right, let’s inject it. Let’s do shockwave therapy. Let’s do sell you expensive orthotics. I go, well, let’s look at your stress and your weight and your diet and your nutrition and your sleep. And I’ve had amazing results like that, but guess what?

doesn’t make money for me, doesn’t make money for the hospital, but it treats my patients. And now, you know, I’m speaking out against the harms from the vaccines, the jabs. I’m speaking out against the transgender mutilation of our children and the drugs and the puberty blockers and the surgery. And what happens to someone like me? And this guy, this dentist that you’re talking about, you get punished, you get something, because you’re a danger, your threat to the orthodoxy and the system.

I need to get his details. Yeah, I’ll connect to you guys. He seems like Mike and a guy. Yeah, Mike’s a fascinating character and he’s got a lot of pressure on his shoulders. He’s been at this for over a decade now. His father was actually, his license was revoked under very shady circumstances. But Mike’s got a clinic in Pearly of all places. I always think of Pearly whites, you know, teeth. Down near Croydon Way.

And it’s a very understated practice because again, there’s not huge money in what he does. A lot of it is time and education. It’s not just applying, you know, four thousand pound braces. Yeah. Um, isn’t that funny? So when you’re practicing really ethically and you’re trying to do the best, instead of being congratulated, awarded, recognized for that, you get punished. Yeah. It’s the inverted world we live in. So anyway, what are the things have you learned?

on your journey of health and discovery? Water. Yeah, let’s talk about that. Again, not an expert, got an awareness. Reverse osmosis is kind of my go-to filter and we’ve got one in the new office. We’ve got an Osmeo reverse osmosis machine. We’ve got one in home as well. So I think you see the kind of filters in the market you can buy in a supermarket and I don’t even think they touch the surface in terms of what they do.

Ahmad (46:10.29)
I don’t think they do either. So, I mean, we are literally bags of water, 75% or whatever. So you’re looking at tap water. It’s full of heavy metals. It’s full of, you know, pesticides, insecticides, hormones, antibiotics, garbage. You really don’t want your body. It’s not H2O that you’re drinking, but dude, haven’t the water boards got our best interests at heart? Yeah, of course they do. Yeah. They put it through a treatment protocol.

Did you ever hear about the Camelford incident? No. So back in the 1980s, I think it was, I might be wrong, but I think it’s the 80s, 80s or 90s, some dude with all this fluoride or chemicals went to a treatment center down in this Camelford estuary and put it in the wrong container and it went into the water supply. I think it was aluminium or some, I’ll look it up. And so basically thousands of people got poisoned.

with their tap water and initially they were told, oh yeah, that metallic taste, don’t worry about it, just boil, just boil it. And oh yeah, here we go, poisoning. And it was all, they tried to cover it up and people died, people died. And it’s like, yeah, camphor, water pollution. So cause, yes, someone, yeah, aluminium sulfate in the wrong tank, aluminium. And we know how toxic that is, yeah.

It’s in certain things, right? Yeah. Well, absolutely. So it’s in certain things. And the thing with aluminium is, it’s again, not in any physiological process. We actually use lots of metals in our body. Magnesium is a metal, zinc is a metal, copper, iron. So we need these essential minerals, these metals in our body for our normal physiological processes, but not aluminium. And aluminium, the problem is, when your body gets aluminium into the system, it doesn’t have a process to get rid of it.

because it’s not used to it being in the body in the first place. And so it can accumulate and now there’s evidence to show that it goes to your brain and it can cause dementia, other problems that can really mess you up. So yeah, the water port, put aluminium in the water by accident. See, yeah, with water, it’s also the hydration. And I read a book by Professor Tim Noakes. Yes. Esteemed Professor Tim Noakes out of South Africa. I read his book called Waterlogged back in, I think it was 2013.

Ahmad (48:35.086)
when we were traveling in Australia too. That was kind of a real key point for us to question a lot of conventional wisdom. And he, I was introduced to the concept or the outcome of hypernutremia and how a lot of these sports hydration companies such as Gatorade and with the GSSI, which is a Gatorade Scientific Sports Institute. And they’re essentially the ones that were responsible for putting out the hydration guidelines of having

eight cups of or eight glasses of water a day, drink ahead of thirst. If you run in a marathon and you’re out there for five hours, make sure you’re drinking ahead of thirst, take a liter every hour, whatever it is. And the more body weight you lose through dehydration, it affects your performance. When in fact it’s the inverse, the best athletes in the world lose up to eight to 10% of their body weight through dehydration, loss of water during a two hour race. Whereas…

recreational runners are actually putting on 10% of body weight throughout run. And then unfortunately led to tragic circumstances in the 90s and the 2000s with multiple cases of hyponatremia and cephalopathy. Is that how you pronounce it? Yeah, that’s it. Well done affecting your brain. Yeah, essentially. Yeah. And you still see it now. People are, oh, I’m not even thirsty, but I’m going to drink a head of thirst.

So that was a big thing for me. Drink to thirst. Why would we be the only species on this planet not to have a functioning thirst mechanism? We need to listen to some outsiders to say, you must drink now. Well, we’ve got an impaired immune system that needs vaccinating to work properly. We need to take drugs to function properly. We need drugs for our minds to work properly because we’re so impaired and flawed and damaged.

Yeah, it’s nonsense. I mean, it’s really funny what you say, Jeff. It just reminded me on this journey that I’m on, because I’m late to this party. One, I’m 48. You’re a lot younger than me. You’re switched on. You’re clever lad. You know, you know, I wish I was smart as you at that age. And it’s only in the last five, six years when I’ve turned around my own health. So I actually only started this when I was about 42. My dad’s dying of cancer. I’m diabetic. I’m hypertensive. I’m 16 kilograms heavier than this.

Ahmad (50:55.926)
got a waist size, not 28, 34. You know, I was very different person. Yeah. And I was like, I need to turn my life around. So you’ve really got yourself sorted early and quick. So well done on that. And I’m hoping people listening to this podcast will make sure they are on the right track and their kids are on the right track. But one of the things I’ve learned on this journey is that just listen to the body. The body is so smart, it’s so intelligent. It’s such an intelligent machine.

And the thing is, there’s so much noise. We stop listening. Listen to your body when it tells you to go to sleep. Listen to your body when it tells you to eat. Listen to your body when it tells you to drink. Listen to your body when it says move or get in the sunlight or whatever. We don’t listen to our body. We override it all the time. I think that’s one of the big problems that I’m looking at. It’s everywhere, isn’t it? Even within your profession, you have to listen to guidelines.

You can’t listen to your intuition and your intuition. Yeah, you have to listen to these guidelines and it happens in so many walks of life. And. Yeah, I’m not too sure how to explain that. It’s sad. No, but it’s true, because like I always say to people, always trust your gut instinct, the only time your gut instinct is ever wrong is when actually you bullshitted yourself and convince yourself that, you know, you were doing the right thing when actually you were

gut instinct was telling you, no, you’re good. My gut instinct has never told me the wrong thing. It’s somehow the innate system knows what is right and what is wrong, whether it’s a business deal, a conversation, meeting someone, whatever, it tells you, it just tells you this is right. You can feel the energy and whatever it is. And as your gut processing, your brain processing things at such a high level that you’re just, your subconscious is dealing with it. Your conscious level is unaware of it.

And coming back to the guideline things, it’s a huge problem for me. I think it’s a noble thing in some respects. Let’s raise the bar. There’s doctors out there or clinicians who are not doing the right things. Like this is a minimum standard you wanna be doing. This is good practice. So it’s well intentioned in that respect. It’s sufficient. You have this one message you broadcast to everybody. The problem with that is,

Ahmad (53:19.43)
Human beings are so individual. You’re very different from me. I’m very different from the next person. You know, you can’t apply the same treatment or protocol to everybody and expect everyone to react the same way. Some people will not do so well and some people will do well. And when you have guidelines that are created by a select few people, they can be corrupted. They can be influenced. They can be co-opted. Coerced.

And then suddenly you’re applying a whole sway for the population with something that’s not right, not good for them. And then naturally then the problem is the culture exists that where if you question the guideline, if you are a dissident, you know, you put your head above the parapet, you get shot down. So that’s not conducive to patient safety. And I think I understand why Jack Cruz is all about decentralization.

It’s all about decentralization, getting away from those big central authorities, getting down to communities, local, and having independence, whatever it is, having independent doctors, independent lawyers, independent journalists, just everything should be independent, independent politicians. People are not working for big structures who are not really taking care of you. I don’t know if that makes sense. It makes total sense because essentially when something is centralized or controlled by the few, it’s susceptible to agendas.

And it’s susceptible to be an influence by stakeholder and shareholder interests, ultimately. Um, but if you can treat the individual, if you can use your intuition, I think it’s better for everyone. What, what would you say for people that actually have, we talk about the gut instinct. What about people that are actually chronically ill? Do you think they have an impaired ability to be able to trust their gut instinct? Or am I being too literal there?

That’s an amazing question. I love that question. Love that question. I think that’s a really good question. I think it does knock you off. So when we talk about the gut, you know, you talk to, um, Rachel Brown, the carnivore shrink, you talk to Isabella Cooper and mitochondria health, and, and you talk to Sheena Fraser about the gut biome. You know, the gut is the gateway into the body, not into conspiracy theories, but into the body in terms of everything that comes into your body comes through the gut has to come through the mouth.

Ahmad (55:43.85)
except, except when you put things topically on the skin, it does absorb. So I think it was Sarah Myhill who said something like, don’t put anything on the skin that you would be prepared to eat. And I think that’s really good advice. And so yes, things can be absorbed through the skin. Yes, you can put some postures up the back passage and absorb it. But most of the things that we actually eat and ingest and take into our body and the microbes are coming from our mouth into our gut. Well, the gut is essentially external to the body, right?

And that weird concept. It’s a weird concept. And as a medical student, I really struggled with that. How is the outside inside? But it is. It’s a tube that’s connected from the mouth to the anus. And is it bringing the outside world into your body physically? But we have barriers. We have cells and acid and you know, ways of protecting ourselves. But when your gut is not healthy, and the biome is damaged, and you’ve got upper fermenting gut when it should be a sterile field.

then you have a leaky gut, then you have bacteria and toxins that can enter the system, and then if the right microbes are not there, they’re not producing the serotonin and the dopamine. I can’t remember which one is which, but one is produced 50% by the bacteria, and one is 70% by the bacteria, and these are neurotransmitters. And so, you know, and there’s more nerves in the gut than anywhere else in the body except for the brain. So, you know, the…

gut is key to your immune system, it’s key to your happiness and your brain function and your cognition amongst many other things. So if your gut’s totally not working, firing incorrectly, then it will affect, I think, your gut instinct, your ability to make the right decisions and choose the right things. And I was there with this whole gut issue. I had heartburn, I was diagnosed with a null start at one point, I had IBS.

I remember like I would have crises where I was in London on the underground and I was like, Oh my God, I need to go. And like, I don’t know where to go. Like it would just come on. And it was awful. Like I had no control of my gut, my body. I was eating garbage, pizzas, processed foods, KFCs, you know. And so I don’t think I was in the right place making the right choices because I was just totally off. And that’s why one of the best things to start off.

Ahmad (58:02.078)
If you want to start the journey of health is for your diet. And I think start things like a keto diet. I mean, look carnivores for some people, the best thing ever. I just think it can be quite restrictive for many people. They miss having a little bit of edge in the side. It’s a high barrier to entry. Yeah. I think an easier way to get into it is a keto diet and just minimize the carb intake and process food. Just get rid of processed foods except your processed foods. No, of course. Yeah, absolutely. And.

If you cook food, it’s being processed, but it’s an interesting topic. But yeah, I credited my ability to be able to have a higher state of thinking and awareness and concentration during that final year at university. And I could sit down for eight hours and write, write my dissertation without being interrupted by external thoughts and hunger pangs. I put that down to like the ketogenic state.

But then when you think about it, actually, was it due to the gut healing and the hormonal and, yeah, just the body systems then starting to be optimized. So is it the ketogenic state in itself or is it the things that come out the back of optimizing and removing? Who knows? Well, ketones are the optimal brain fuel. Yeah. So it’s funny, as a med student, if you’ve gone into med school, which I think is a good thing you didn’t, because you’re here now,

Um, everything happens for a reason, buddy. Good, bad, who knows? Yeah. So, um, but as a med school, I remember being taught being in a ketotic state. It’s really bad for you. And ketoacidosis is the worst thing ever. And you don’t want to be in ketoacidosis. Actually, that’s a complete load of baloney running on ketones is the best thing ever. That’s the cleanest form of fuel that you can have. You don’t want to be running on glucose. You know, you want to be running on ketones, especially for brain function.

But can I ask you something? I want to go back to you and your firm, Hunter and Gather. Why is it not called Hunter and Gatherer? Trademark. But no, it’s… Trademark, we understand the syntax is wrong. But Amy comes from a line of hunts. So her paternal surname, back a few generations, was Hunt. And mine was Gathergoods. So…

Ahmad (01:00:29.206)
Hunter and gather. It just, it just sounded right. We were going to be called something else actually was just about to launch. Um, and we got a 12 page document from a German attorney from a U S brand telling us we can’t use that name was literally about to launch in, in September, 2017. Oh wow. A very well known person. Um, I still look up to him even though that happened. Um, so yeah, it was kind of a, tell me all fair. I will do a shooting from the hip scenario.

But we like it. It’s cool. We get told by hand for people in each year. You should be hunter-gatherer. It’s fine. It’s fine. Everything happens for a reason. So how are you going to make sure that your company doesn’t become like big food and start making really unhealthy processed foods? Because like right now, you’re not paying for anything.

You know, I’m not saying this because you’re sponsoring me. I am a listener sponsored show at this moment. I have everybody listening, all those thousands of people who are not subscribed to my show. Please pay three pound 50 a month and become a paid subscriber. You say there’s thousands of people. Listen, you tell me there’s only five listeners. Shut up. It’s something like 35,000 a week. That’s wild. Congratulations. And you don’t wish it in May, right? Yeah. End of May. You’ve got a strong message. Mental. So, um.

Yeah, going back, I’m you know, you’re not paying me to say this. I’m genuinely saying this. I love your product. My kids love your products and they seem very clean. They seem everything is just like one or two ingredients. That’s true. Am I right? Absolutely. How do you make sure you maintain that and don’t become corrupted and don’t like, why did you not go, oh, let’s just do things on the cheap and, you know, because that’s the model everyone else is going down as the race to the bottom. Everybody’s following the race to the bottom. You know, the, you know,

get the biggest margins, the cheapest product possible. Why did you decide you’re not gonna do this race to the bottom? There’s a few things there. First of all, we’re our own customer, myself and Amy, we are our own customer. We didn’t launch this business as a way to make a multi-million pound business. It was launched due to some naivety, some ignorance, and wanting to change something and contribute and use it as a message.

Ahmad (01:02:52.01)
But it’s an interesting question to ask. As bad as big food is, big food are also looking for solutions on how to innovate and how to bring solutions to market that consumers are demanding. There’s 35,000 people listening to this podcast. A higher percentage of them want a solution to the food issue. These big food companies are

So in agile, they’ve got such an inability to be able to have their ear to the ground to understand what a consumer wants. They’re so manipulated by shareholders and stakeholders and they’re in agile. So they’re looking for smaller brands, such as to be able to come through with the innovation, to be able to change the food industry. Now that could be in the horrendous plant-based space. Plant-based space, it’s got a ring to it, right? With these horrendous, what I call horrendous.

Franken foods. It’s almost like, you know, ultra processed foods on steroids. It’s horrendous. But. Arguably, someone’s intentions are well-meaning at some place. And then you’ve got on the other end of the scale, kind of brands such as ancestrally inspired, you’ve got the whole regenerative agriculture movement that’s really taken hold, you’ve got the likes of. Brands in the US, for instance, in other territories that have been acquired by big food.

And there’s not been a dilution in the quality that’s been maintained because these food companies need to move all the times and they see brands such as, as that gateway to be able to do so. So I have, I have faith that the industry is moving and we need to be leading that charge and doing so. So I don’t think there’s any.

there’s any incentive to actually reduce the quality or to manipulate that. Firstly, we run a good business. Without no margin, there is no mission. You can’t be a charity and make change. I’m not a communist. No, but a lot of people do, you know? They’re like, you know, you make a profit for that. It’s like, well, you need to. It’s funny, but I find that in America, they don’t have this attitude. In America, they reward excellence.

Ahmad (01:05:12.894)
Here in the UK, I mean, I’m British, I love my country, but I wish our culture was a little bit different where they were encouraged and said, wow, that person’s doing so well, good for them. Whereas… In my head, it’s a simple formula. If you’re creating great value for people, then you’re gonna accumulate great value yourself, great wealth. And that’s not because you’re trying to be a snake or salesman or sell a product that lacks integrity. It’s because you’re bringing great value to many people.

Um, so yeah, without no margin, there is no mission. So if you can set a business up that makes sense from the start, you’re in a good, you’re in a good place and you can, you can create influence and change. Not sure if that answers the original question. How do we ensure? Well, so for example, what happens if a big bad food company offers you this amazing deal and wants to take you over? And they’re just.

they just slowly corrupt it and they just, you lose the essence of what made your company, you know, special and different. How’d you resist that? It’s a difficult question, isn’t it? It’s a difficult question because no one can look into the future. We have personal value set. We’ve built a fantastic culture within, our team is currently 19 people and we’ve got a fantastic culture and understanding. And ultimately,

If a big business wants to come along to buy us, it’s up to us if you want to sell. Um, and then that raises a really interesting conversation point because can a bigger business, not the likes of the big, really big bad boys, but could a bigger business that has bigger resource and bigger ability to be able to reach more people, should we stand in the way of the message and the product to stop that or not? I’m not too sure. So I think, I think.

when it comes to good things and company and competition, it’s nothing but a good thing. It’s healthy. And I always subscribe to the win-win kind of philosophy. I think Steve Covey, seven habits of he’s got the quadrant of highly successful people, you know, this idea that, you know, I have to win at your expense or you win at my expense and nonsense because that’s a kind of like two plus two equals four zero sum game.

Ahmad (01:07:41.374)
zero sum game, whereas I should be thinking, how can I benefit in cooperation with you? You benefit as well. And instead of two plus two, we have, we make two plus two actually make seven or eight. Like the product of our work actually benefits us so much more than if we were doing it individually. Some of the parts or the sum is bigger than the parts individually. Yeah. So I definitely think win wins scenarios is the way people should look forward to things.

It’s funny, I wrote a post about success, the rollercoaster of success. So you say it seems a very British trait in terms of, I think there’s two character traits or two, two character types in the UK or in Britain. Number one, you’ve got that person that really supports you. Um, when you’re looking to succeed and achieve something, they stand by you, they support you. Um, they, they have faith in you. And when you achieve it, they say, Hey, that person is inspirational.

He’s strong. He’s motivated. The other sort of person, they seem like they support you. They say the right words. Then when you, when you achieve success, they say he’s lucky. It was all given to him. He’s arrogant. He’s overconfident. And it’s, I think they call it the success roller coaster. Everyone loves an underdog and they support you on the way up.

But as you get to the top, they want to bring you back down.

They don’t do that in America though. No, they seem to just push you up. Push you, push you, push you, push you, push you. Push you, push you, push you. How can it be so different? Not just yours. It’s a strange psyche. Cause I’ve been to the States so many times and I love that about them. They’re, they never want to bring down. They don’t take pleasure. And I think like, for example, our media loves that, doesn’t it? Our media loves to bring down. They revel in it. I saw myself. Wow. Right.

Ahmad (01:09:45.046)
Let’s move on. So I’ve had thoughts about this. I don’t know what you think. You know, our culture loves celebrities. And one of the big ones is celebrity chefs and all these, you know, cooks and stuff. You’re Paul Ainsworth, you’re Nathan Atlaw. I’m running out of names. I do know more, trust me, I do. But you know what I mean, okay? All these big chefs, they’re on their TV. I feel like if we could just convince

a few of them that you know what, sea dolls are really not good. They’re pretty toxic shit. And you know, you’re taking pride in the food that you give out on the plate. You know, you hear them on the TV programs. And you know, they clearly love what they do. They’ve got a passion for it. If they knew how awful this ingredient key ingredient in their meal, they would balk at it and go, Oh my god, shit, is this what we’re putting in our food?

Like you just get a few of them on board and develop a campaign, develop some kind of campaign amongst these chefs, get three, four, five of them, get a campaign, a social media campaign to promote, you know, stop using seed oils. I think it could really take on board and then they start messaging people and telling everybody. I don’t know what your thoughts on that have been. Yeah, we discussed it on the phone, didn’t we briefly? Yeah, let’s do it.

Because we need to. Yeah, how can we do it? It’s something to look into for sure. My initial response, again, British response would be, geez, there’s so many vested interests in stopping that. And I think seed oil is where sugar was 15 or 20 years ago in terms of the awareness and acceptance. That it’s bad for you. No sugar had that kind of journey. Tobacco’s had that journey. Vaccines.

God knows. But yeah, I think it’s a very good point and we do celebrate these chefs. And why does society have this huge obsession with cooking these most extravagant recipes? Like food, a good steak is the most, I was hoping you’d have a steak ready by the way, but a good steak is phenomenal. I’m craving a steak right now. I’m not eating today.

Ahmad (01:12:08.886)
Why not? Not eating yet. Eating today. Should we have steak? You can do so. We can at the time we can do it on one of Rogan’s episodes recently with a dog musk. They actually took a break and went outside to shoot an arrow. A dog musk’s new car. Um, to see if it’d go through that she stopped the podcast halfway through. I remember that we could do our own version now. We could, we could. Are you a carnivore by the way? Um, or I

vegetable matter too. Should we stop? Let’s stop. Okay, fine. Let’s do it. We’ve got time. We can do this. Let’s go.

Ahmad (00:00.734)
Right. So how was that meal? Woof. It’s the best one I’ve had for a while. It’s Doc Malik quite good at it. Yeah. It was, um, yeah. Lamb koftas, a very orange egg yolk with the white as well. Yeah. Um, and some halloumi. Yep. With a drizzle of unpasteurized honey. Yeah. That’s the first for me. Wasn’t it good? It was gorgeous. Yeah. It cuts through that salty taste and it just gives a nice contrast. It’s that ultimate sweet and salty kind of thing. I quite like.

And we sat on the floor. Yeah. Next to our fireplace burning carbon. Yep. What shows carbon credits? Yeah. Anyway, I was saying, I was saying, I bet your dad is super proud of you. You know, young guy like you, switched on. You know, entrepreneur. You’re doing well. I mean, your parents must be like, I’m saying this because I miss my dad. Yeah, for sure. And I think about my dad all the time.

I hope my dad is looking at me now and thinking, I’m proud of you son. You’re stuck sticking by your guns and your principles because I am a product of my parents and my parents were all about, you know, being a good person and having integrity. And my dad had that with the bucket load and he pulled himself up, you know, through his bootstraps. You know, he was working class and. And I think I’ve learned a lot from that. You know, he was his business. He’s got set back sometimes and he always picked himself up and became more successful.

So it’s an interesting month. So I’ve got a, got a fantastic mom and a fantastic dad who is in fact my stepdad. And he came into my life when I was five years old. Um, but when you talk about a working class background, yeah, geez, I’ve got that in buckets. Um, I grew up in Dagenham, Europe’s largest council estate. Um, wow. No, no different. My, my, actually my life started off in Northwest London, um, with my mom and my biological father. Um,

He went to prison when I was two years old for like 14 years, um, for some serious offenses. Um, so yeah, it’s, it’s a weird one. It’s almost like, how have I got to this position now where I’ve got this, you know, you said to me off there about the wisdom at such a young age. It’s almost like there’s something inside of me. I was, I was born to spread the message and to create what we create in. It’s, it’s a bizarre because my background and upbringing doesn’t lend itself to.

Ahmad (02:31.574)
being where I am or what we’re doing now. Sounds very self-indulgent. But yeah, it’s an interesting word. I was also born blind in my left eye. So I’ve got a birthmark on the optic nerve, which most people, if you look at me, you can’t tell. They didn’t find that out until I was five years old. I was in primary school and they was doing a sight test. And the next day, it was Saturday morning and I remember going to tell my mom, I was like,

And when they asked me to cover my right eye up, so she thought that was a bit bizarre. And she took me to the opticians and they covered my right eye and tried to get me to look at the site board, the letters. I couldn’t read the letters. I couldn’t even read the top one. Oh wow. And the optician was like, is this, this kid knows alphabet. They changed eyes. I could read down to the smallest line. So they took me to Great Ormond Street. They thought there was some

serious things may be wrong with the brain. So I had a series of tests and they established that there was some sort of lesion, what they called a strawberry birthmark on the optic nerve, which seemed to have distorted the messages to get through to the brain. And then what? It’s still there? Still there. Yeah. They said there was, there’s nothing they could do. Back then that was what? 26, 27 years ago. So you can only see through your right eye? Pretty much. So I can, I can tell there’s things here.

But if, if I had to walk around like this in the world, I can’t see you in front of me now you’re you’ve disappeared. Wow. I’m sure they’ve got some technology where they could laser it and shrivel up. But then even then, would it, would it make any difference? Cause your optic nerve hasn’t really developed properly. Yeah. I’m unsure. It’s something I want to look into actually. So if there’s anyone out there hit me up because essentially it’s then caused my kind of skeletal system to be shifted.

I’ve got this kind of weird shift that’s happened, which has caused some issues in the lower back. So I’m always combating that. And I think we talked earlier, if I didn’t live this way, since there was a reason I come across this stuff at a young age, because if I didn’t, the path was probably similar to my, you know, my biological father in terms of addictiveness and, and a toxic lifestyle, et cetera.

Ahmad (04:58.626)
So for some reason I was given the gift of finding out about these things at a certain point in my life. Wow. His two sisters, it’s the first I want to talk about this publicly, but his two sisters, they took their own lives. His dad, so my grandfather I never met, had schizophrenia. He’s got issues, you know, addictions, etc. And the more I’ve learned about genes and like MTHFR and…

C six, seven, um, or that sort of thing, methylation pathways, a lot more makes sense. So we’ve established them sort of things. And even in Amy’s side of the family, there were some, um, what happens at miscarriages. And she’s also got the same, she’s homozygous for that MTHFR gene as well. So, um, it’s a beautiful light coming in there, but you know what we talk about genes.

But I think genes are a tiny factor to play in it. I think, yes, they’re important, but it’s your environment, it’s your influences, it’s your experiences, it’s your diet, it’s your food that actually shapes everything. Like disease, chronic disease, 95% of it is lifestyle. It’s not genetic. And so this obsession with gene therapy and gene therapy-based drugs is just nonsensical when actually simple lifestyle measures would work.

And I think, yes, there’s generational trauma that gets passed through and you see that, but that’s when things don’t change, when the environment doesn’t change, the opportunities don’t change. What’s amazing is somehow you broke out of that cycle and you showed that actually, yes, genetically there might have been some issues. I’m not gonna fall on that path. And then the next set of genes that you lay down will be different and your kids will have a better.

start to life, they won’t have that disadvantage that potentially you might’ve had. I believe that. Yeah. I subscribe to that theory too. Um, I heard you speak about it recently, actually with one of your guests. Um, that’s nice to listen to my podcast. I had to do my research. That’s not what I was at myself in before. Um, no, I agree. I think, um, someone needs to buck that trend. Um, yeah, it’s hard though.

Ahmad (07:27.366)
I mean, in my early twenties, I was a, yeah, it’s almost like you’re, you know, when someone’s saying it like it was a long time ago, it was 10 years ago, but it feels like a lifetime ago because my outlook on life and how I conducted myself and value set, there was a lot of growth in my early twenties in terms of like mindset and consciousness and awareness, empathy, integrity, all those sort of things.

Um, and I had friends at school that have gone on to be in prison and have died and all sorts of things, you know, and live in toxic lifestyles. And there’s never a worst message to receive from a friend or there is, but I don’t like receiving this particular message when you ask them how they are. And they just say same shit different day. I just think, man, you’re in your early thirties, there’s abundance in the world. There’s so much opportunity and you’re living with such a scarce mindset.

Yeah. So there’s definitely an element of you need to take personal responsibility and make your destiny. I also think though society and the government or state has made it so that it’s very difficult. Like I see both sides of it. You know, the terrain that people are growing up in nowadays where you’re shackled with debt and where you’re indoctrinated from an early time.

point in your childhood and school and university, where you then watch garbage on TV, where you know no better. It’s very difficult to break out and see the truth and the lie. And then the system is designed to almost enslave you through debt. And when you’re shackled with debt, you’re not free. You can’t speak up, you can’t say what you want. I’ve got this young lad coming on my podcast, he’s only 18. He started speaking out against all the COVID.

nonsense when he was 14. Then he started speaking out against the transgender stuff. Guess what? He got kicked out of university.

Ahmad (09:33.814)
It’s a threat to the system. I think they call it learned hopelessness as well. Yes. Yeah. You just, yeah, you can’t critically think and you can’t see above that parapet. And yeah, for some reason again, I don’t want to be too self-indulgent, but for some reason I was gifted that gift of being able to do so. Um, and it’s been a, been a, been a journey so far for the past decade or so. And I have this, I feel this responsibility to, to do what we do at Hunter and gather.

and who knows what’s beyond that as well. I have this responsibility to spread awareness just like you are. Yeah. So when you are not hunter and gather ing, what do you do? What do you do to keep healthy and fit? And cause we’ve talked about food diet. We’ve touched upon water and a little bit about sleep. You know,

There’s other facets to staying healthy and living a good lifestyle, and that’s exercise and movement. So what do you do in terms of that? How do you find time to do that and what do you do? Yeah, just like with everyone, it’s a challenge to juggle work, your vocation, business, and to find time to craft yourself. But as the cliche goes, put your oxygen mask on first. Yeah, being outdoors is a huge part of my life. We’ve got two dogs, three horses.

two cats. Nice. At the moment. I thought the other day, we haven’t got any children, but we’ve got seven other mouths to feed. It’s quite a responsibility. It’s funny. You should say that because people say to me, Oh, do you have any dogs? And I go, I’ve got three puppies, human puppies. Yeah. So I mean, haven’t we’ve got two young dogs, one’s coming up three ones, two and a half who was rescued actually from some really bad circumstances. We weren’t looking for a second dog, but our friends found him, said, Hey, can you look after him overnight? The dog warden wants to take him.

He’s still with us now. Great dog. So I actually do a sport called dog agility. And you may have seen it at crufts where they jump over jumps and go through tunnels and over frames. So I’ve been doing that for the last 15 months. And that is something that I can just be present on outdoors. If I’m training dogs in the field, typically have no shoes on, patience, awareness, critical thinking, because you’re thinking how can you change what you’re doing? So

Ahmad (11:58.046)
I do a lot of that and that’s a lot of sprinting and moving around and slow movement. Um, typically in a training session, do like five to 7,000 steps. Um, in like a 40 minute training session. Wow. Um, also canny cross during the winter, which is another sport with the dogs where they’ve got harness on and there’s a bungee line and I’ve got a running belt and they kind of work as a team to run as fast as we can. So, um, we’ve got some five K’s coming up over the winter, um, up in Thetford forest in Norfolk.

So trying to beat last year’s time. That’s fun. And I’m navigating this back, the back challenge. I never like to say my back. You know, I don’t want to own this narrative. I don’t want to create a narrative around it. So there’s some challenges that we work through. So that looks pretty much like, you know, lifting resistance training, mobility stuff. Yeah.

Ahmad (12:57.614)
five, six years plus I found that my membership was just taking away and I was lucky if I went once a month, as soon as the kids arrived, it was just impossible. And you know, getting to the gym, spending two hours or an hour and a half, you may want to make it worth your while and then shower, come back. I mean, that’s your whole evening gone just like that. I just didn’t have that time and I should actually get him on. I, I came across a personal trainer and strength and conditioning coach and we just start training.

and I paid him and it was just brilliant. As outside, I started exercising with weights in a way that was very functional, never ever done before. Before it’s all just static weights and machines. I don’t really know what I was doing. Um, and suddenly I realized all the different ways to exercise. So after, you know, 10, 20 lessons, what I realized was I had in my memory vault 40 exercises that I could just take out.

And then so I didn’t need him anymore. I had this knowledge of how to exercise safely. So what I do now is three, four times a week, I just literally go into my memory vault and take out five to 10 exercise, depending on how much time I’ve got. And I just thrash it out first thing in the morning, 20 minutes to half an hour. And I realized I don’t need an hour of exercise. Actually just 20 minutes of intense weights is enough. And that’s actually made me a stronger runner. It’s made me quite good at Jiu-Jitsu and actually keeps off all the other ailments

problems that you can get. So that’s how I exercise. And I like to do it outside, even when it’s cold, like today, it doesn’t matter. Just being outside. The only time when I want is when it’s snowing or raining really heavily because the grass is too slippery. Yeah. But that’s how I exercise as well as running. Yeah. Well, do you know Darrell Edwards? He’s called the fitness explorer on, on Instagram. He’s based in London. Um, he’s got something called the primal play method and he’s got a Ted talk as well, which is really good. Uh, on YouTube called

why working out isn’t working out. Okay. And he’s all about how we go back to ancestral movement, how we can have fun and play. Play is serious when you watch children play, it’s serious. There’s rules to the game. Whereas we’ve become so sterile in how we move and exercise. And he actually positions exercise as a modern day construct for the lack of movement opportunities exist within our society. Yeah. So.

Ahmad (15:23.682)
And everything’s very linear as well. One planer. Sets, reps, yeah. All that kind of real sterile stuff. And he talks about how like the outdoors and a tree, the tree is his gym. Even better still, it’s his playground. Wow. So it’s a… I took them principles six years ago or so. So that comes into what we do.

Ahmad (15:47.458)
Yeah, there’s nothing worse in my opinion than… No, it comes down to the individual and what makes the individual tick, right? So I think if you can lift heavy things, if you can move slowly, move fast sometimes, be outdoors as much as you can. Yeah, yeah, you do you. You do you, but you need to exercise. It’s very important. You asked me what did I change earlier. Even running, for instance, I changed from being in this black zone of cardio.

this kind of gray zone of cardio to actually like, they call it zone two now. It’s really in vogue zone two. Huberman talks about it all the time, but I found that back in 2015, 2016 from a chap called Matt Fitzgerald, who talks about the 80-20 principle and essentially slow down to run fast. The elite athletes aren’t training anywhere near the perceived intensity that your local club runners run in. Local club runners think harder is better. Go hard or go home.

It’s not. If you just, if you run at a very easy aerobic pace, you build mitochondria, you build the system within the body, your, yeah, your body becomes stronger rather than just fast tracking yourself to injury. I know all about this. So when I was working, one of my favorite group of patients were runners and you know, I only took up running around lockdown period. I wasn’t ever thought of myself as a runner.

And I used to, you know, sigh when a patient would come in and go, I’m a runner. I’m a runner and I’ve got this problem. And if I don’t, and they just start crying. They were a bit like vegans. How do you know a vegan? They’ll tell you. Exactly. And I didn’t. Yeah. And fake meat. So I didn’t, I didn’t have much sympathy for runners. I just thought it’s all self-inflicted and they’re all like so tightly, you know, round up. It’s like.

Just chillax, have a break, stop running for two months, your problem will go away. And just saying that was like the worst thing ever. I’m like the worst doctor ever, how dare I? Why don’t I just bring out a little injection and just quickly, can’t you just give me an injection? I’m like, no, I can’t just give you an injection. Well, I could, but it’s not gonna work. And that’s what they just wanted, a quick fix. And I realized for a lot of people, running was like a mental crutch. It was what kept them going. They were suffering, they had a bad marriage. This is how they had to release.

Ahmad (18:11.79)
They had a shitty job and a crap boss. This was how they mentally coped. And the main thing that I found was they were pushing themselves. Targets, times, distance, time. And I was like, maybe just slow down a bit. And actually what the research shows is exactly what you’ve just said. Intensity is the biggest driver for injury. Just tone it down a bit, slow down. You can still have the distance, but just run at a pace that’s comfortable and you’ll be fine. And a lot of people…

who are running to get away from something or, you know, I’ve got mental health issues, they struggle with that because they’re pushing themselves to the limit. And actually, if they just slow down and just enjoy the environment and enjoy the, just the pleasure of running itself, they’d realize that actually just get as much of a dopamine hit and the positive psychological effects. So I run, not at a pace where I’m out of breath, pushing myself hard.

I run with my wife and often we’re having a conversation and it can be a little bit labored especially if you’re going up the hill, it’s cross countries, but it’s a pace that’s reasonably comfortable, you know, and we manage 10 to 13 K, sometimes 15, 16 K depending if you’ve got time. And so I love running, but I think a lot of people don’t realize this, you cannot just run, you need to add in strength training and functional movement. Because what is running doing? It’s just this one single kind of like, you know, movement plane.

and, you know, repetitive using a few muscle groups. Um, yeah, I think it leaves you quite vulnerable for sure. If you’re just doing that. And particularly if you’re. Yeah. Running way too hard, but, um, an old coach of mine who come from the old school and the old school had it right in terms of, they talk a lot about time on feet. Um, rather than what, you know, running world magazines, telling what the latest workout plan should be. Um, but they talk about go out and smell the roses. Um, they talk about go on.

on a chatty run and be able to speak to each other and finish instances. Um, we’ve just overcomplicate it way too far. Too complicated. Can I ask you something? This is important. And I want to give you plenty of time to do this because I know you need to go soon and I need to go pick up the kids. Imagine now you’re 181, right? You’ve lived a long life, fantastic life. You’ve got kids, grandkids, great grandkids, everybody around you on the death bed around you. Before you pass away.

Ahmad (20:37.942)
What words of wisdom and advice would you give them, health or otherwise? I think it could be more than one.

Ahmad (20:52.73)
little by little a little becomes a lot so don’t expect instant gratification don’t expect instant results but also if you’re doing the wrong thing it’s going to build up over time become really bad

Um, good, bad, who knows? So, so often we say, Oh, isn’t that good? Oh, isn’t that bad? And the past few years I’ve actually become more like, not too sure. Who knows? Have you heard the Chinese fable? I think it is all parable fable. Is that the right word? Yeah. I don’t know, but essentially, um,

One day the village chief’s son’s horse escaped and all the villagers said, isn’t that bad? He said, I’m not too sure, who knows? And it came back with a broken leg. And they said, isn’t that bad? Not too sure, who knows? And then the son then started to bring the horse back into work. Then the son fell off and broke his back. Everyone said, isn’t that bad? And then the next day,

The village had to go to war and the sun had to stay at home. And everyone was like, isn’t that good? Essentially, who knows? Who knows what’s good or bad? Who knows if it’s bad that you’ve, you’ve been, you know, not allowed to work right now. Who knows if it’s good or bad. Who knows? So yeah, don’t, yeah, I think that’s, that’s a really wise thing that I’d like a lot of people to adopt.

Ahmad (22:34.558)
Always ask why. Try to understand the root of something. Understand why something might be how it is. Who is it benefiting?

Ahmad (22:50.338)
Question everything. Yeah, question everything. Don’t just be a contrarian for sake of being a contrarian, because I think that can become quite addictive as well.

and do it from a point of, you know, being informed. Um, and I think even within the world now, I’ve really stepped back from social media during the time of the COVID times, living and dying by, you know, the latest observations of, of what’s happening. And I think it can become quite toxic on both sides. And I think if you can disconnect from

If you can disconnect from the latest thing, whatever that latest thing is in 150 years time when I’m on my deathbed, did you say 181 years or 81 years? 181. Yeah. Okay. So in 149 years time, whatever the latest thing is, try not to be too passionate about it because is it detracting away from your, your quality of life right now? The thing that matters. I think that’s really, really actually.

relevant to what’s going on right now with the whole Gaza, Israel thing. Everybody getting heated, all the passion, you know, videos coming out and people’s passions are being raised and pictures of dead people and children. Obviously, it’s terrible what’s going on. It’s terrible, but it’s also not healthy for the individual or society. So you get so whipped up in a frenzy and reacting because I think that’s playing into.

what we see a time and time and again, which is problem reaction, and then a solution is offered and maybe we can’t stop people bringing up problems, but we can disengage and not react quite the way they want us to. And it doesn’t mean that you don’t care. It doesn’t mean that you’re not human. It just means that, you know what? Keep a cool head. You know, I love that poem by Rudyard Kipling, if, you know.

Ahmad (24:53.134)
all those around you are losing their heads and not you kind of thing. You’ll be a man, my son and everything in the world or whatever. That’s the way it should be. Like when everyone’s hating, don’t fall into hate. When everyone’s into, you know, insulting, don’t, don’t start insulting back, just step back. But the social media is almost got this siren call. Come, come and be horrible and bring out the worst in you. It’s like, just be nice.

Simple as that. Just be nice. And I think the final thing that I would say, I’ve got a lever bound copy of the daily stoic, not sure if you know a daily stoic by Ryan Holiday, which is you read it every day has got its own page. And it’s, you know, some wisdom from Marcus Aurelius or from Seneca. Fantastic. And, and Ryan gives some commentary on it. Like every day is exceptional. So I bought the lever bound copy.

that’s going to become a family heirloom. So I’ll make sure to say, I’m sure that’s passed down, read it, pass it down. All right. I’m going to get one. Yeah. I’m going to get one. And that’s how typically my, my day starts by the way. Um, I’ll have some water, some reverse osmosis water with some salt or some electrolytes, let the dogs out for a toilet. They do some great squats by the way. When they go to toilet.

and then I go and sit in my armchair. So I’ve got this armchair now in the corner of my lounge. No phone or device is allowed in that chair since it’s coming to the house. So you can’t sit in that chair if you’ve got a phone on you or any other device that is purely an analog space. Pen and paper, books, that’s a place to think. So that’s how my morning starts off, typically by reading a daily stoic. And that grounds me, that grounds my mind, that gives me a time of reflection.

It ensures that I’m nice. It ensures that I have empathy and integrity. And is my kind of North Star. Nice. What do you normally eat? In the morning. No, like during the day. What’s your day like?

Ahmad (27:12.066)
two pounds of meat at least. So 750 grams plus of meat per day. Sorry, I should have done a vegan trigger warning there. Yeah, sorry vegans. Look, the cows that I eat are vegan. No, all jokes aside, a very nutrient dense diet. I prioritize micronutrients. Yeah, typically a lot of red meat, well-raised red meat. And dare I say,

It’s a controversial opinion. Well, it’s not an opinion. It’s a fact. Um, the beef industry in the UK, the conventional beef industry that goes into a food supply chain, it’s pretty darn good. We live in a fortunate country where we have a lot of pasta. Um, it’s actually uneconomical for farmers to be feeding cattle extra feed when we’ve got such lush pastures. So if you, if you can’t afford to eat.

regeneratively raised local farm fed at farm raised meat. The 20% mints from the supermarket is a good option. So yeah, I consume that sometimes. And that’s important. Like the fat content actually, high fat content is not a bad thing. Yeah, not a bad thing. I used to think of it, but like, oh no, I want it really super lean. I want the, you know, I don’t want any fat. It’s really funny. Like my diet has changed so much. Instead of craving.

carbs and stuff like that. Now I crave the fat around steaks. I love that. Love that, you know, especially if it’s been on the barbecue, it’s a bit charred, amazing. And it’s funny how your palette changes. Yeah, it really does. And I remember the early days when I gave up carbohydrates or refrained from consuming carbohydrates back in 2012, 2013, I would wake up every day and think, geez, another day without carbohydrates. And then, you know, 10, 12 years on, you kind of

You forget what that’s like for an individual who’s at the start of that journey, but it’s a very real feeling that you do very quickly. You’re almost rewiring yourself. You’re recalibrating and you’re allowing your body’s natural systems, you know, leptin, the grelling, the other hormones that are involved, satiety signals to actually come to forefront. Again, why would we be the only species that hasn’t got an optimal, um, hunger and satiety?

Ahmad (29:39.882)
regulation. Again, we’re so disconnected from our intuition. We rely on calories on a back of pack to tell us when we’ve had enough. Exactly. It’s mad. It’s mad. So one of my earliest podcasts was someone called Thomas Seyfried, and he was amazing talking about cancer. And he said, you know, cancer doesn’t really exist in the wild. You don’t get many monkeys or apes or anything like that who are close to us from a genetic point of view. They don’t.

have cancers and he goes, but it would happen. If they were in the zoo eating burgers and pizzas and donuts, they’d get fat, they’d get addicted to that and they would have cancer. I even asked the zookeeper, would they eat this stuff and the zookeeper was like, absolutely. He said, why don’t you give that to them then? And his response was, it’s animal cruelty. So just think about that. If the animals in the zoo are not getting their species specific diet,

and we’re giving them our processed junk food, that’s animal cruelty. I would say what most people are now eating in the form of the processed food that we’re getting in Big Food is human cruelty. And until we turn things around, you know, we’re not gonna be in a good place. And that’s what we’re doing in our lane. We’re owning our lane. We’re trying to disrupt Big Food and show them how it can be done. We’ve got a lot of work to do. We’re at the start of our journey.

But you’ve only got to look at man’s best friend in dogs, in canines around the country and see how many have got metabolic diseases and how many are overweight. Yeah. Overfed, undernourished, because essentially they have that bag of ultra processed food and they live on that until they’re very shortened lives, unfortunately. Yeah, everybody should listen to my podcast with Roger Meacock about how to look after your pets because we all love our pets in this country.

and I think no one would want their pet to suffer or die early. So they should take that on board. Anyway, listen, Jeff, I’m looking at the clock and I need to pick up my kids soon. I really enjoyed our little lunch. Even though I promised my wife we’d eat together. It was nice. Please don’t blame me. I’m not blaming you at all.

Ahmad (32:05.174)
But listen, it’s been really nice. We had this in the diary and I’m really glad you came. And it’s just nice meeting you. Yeah, the energy is great. Love it. It is great. I think you’re doing great things. You’re asking great questions. You’re doing good work and good work prevails. Thank you. And I think, yeah, I will also take on board your advice that you just said about things happen slowly and you just keep chipping away, keep chipping away. And I think, you know, I had three weeks where I was quite stressed about, oh shit.

what’s happened, like, oh my God, I can’t work. Like 80% of my practice has just gone. 10 years I’ve built up, you know, 15 years before that to get to that point where I can have a practice. 25 years of work and it’s just gone out the window. But equally, you know when bad things happen and they have to me, like I look back in time and I think, I’m so glad that thing happened to me. I’m so glad that door shut on my face. I’m so glad I was forced to do this and do that. And there’s so many instances. Like I couldn’t get a job in Scotland, which is why I’m down here.

I’m really glad I’m down here now because I met my wife down here. You know, if I got a job in Scotland, I would never met my wife and we would never had these beautiful kids. So I’m really glad I had 18 rejections up there and I was forced to come down here. Was you that bad? Yeah, it was that bad. Um, I’m really glad I couldn’t get a job in London and had to find a job here, you know, cause again, that’s where I met my wife. And I don’t mind the fact I was paralyzed after a car accident and had emergency spinal surgery and had another complication.

taught me a lot about myself and my body and physiotherapy and exercise and had to be a compassionate surgeon because I was on the receiving end of some really bad care and I realized how vulnerable patients feel, how they can suffer. So that made me a better doctor for sure. I’m kind of glad I went through a tough first marriage because I think I’m a better husband second time around and I think I value what it means to be in a loving relationship and the sacrifices you have to make.

also understanding your boundaries and having self respect and self love. Um, I mean, I could go on and on, but what I’m trying to say is like every single time some adversity has happened, there’s been an opportunity and yes, while it’s scary, you know, and I never, I was telling you, I was never thinking of being a professional podcaster or influencer. I just, you know, this was a little hobby of my fight back, help people. Um, hopefully this will take off and hopefully, you know, who knows what the future holds.

Ahmad (34:32.13)
So that’s good advice you were giving out by the way. Yeah, thanks. I think when you zoom out on so big enough time horizon, most things are positive. Yeah. Get out of that little microcosm, that little tunnel vision. Myopic view of just now. Myopic view, that was it. Yeah. Okay. Wrap it up. Yeah. Guys, I really hope you enjoyed listening to this. And I’m not saying this because I want to say, I’m not being sponsored to do this podcast. I’m telling you right now, you know, look up Hunter Gather.

Their products are amazing and I love them. Like, you know, they’re tasty, they’re healthy, they’re clean, there’s some new stuff you brought for me. Thank you so much for that present that I’m gonna try. But like the oils and the mayonnaise that I use regularly, and the ghee, I can vouch for, they’re fantastic. So check it out everyone. And Jeff, if you can put me in touch with some of those other people you mentioned, that’d be amazing and God bless you. Thank you very much everyone. Okay, bye bye.