#155 – Discussions With Mr Aluminium

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ABOUT THIS CONVERSATION:
Dr Chris Exley PhD has spent 40 years researching and studying Aluminium and its effect on human health. He has published almost 300 scientific papers on the subject. His world-renowned and respected reputation as the leading authority on aluminium however was not enough to save him when he came up against the aluminium, Big Pharma and vaccine industries.

Chris was cancelled by Keele University and attempts were made to discredit him in the media.

Chris has written a book titled “Imagine you are an aluminium atom”, I encourage everyone to buy this book.

Aluminium is the 3rd most abundant element in the earth’s crust, but paradoxically has no known biological function in plants or animals and in fact is cytotoxic.

For most of Earth’s history, Aluminium has been safely locked away with silicon and oxygen. But 150 years ago with the mass production of Aluminium that all changed. All life on this planet is now exposed to this toxic element.

Chris’s research has revealed the alarming impact this has had on human health, and after listening to this podcast you will understand why he was cancelled.

I hope you enjoy this episode.

Much love Ahmad

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Ahmad (00:00.492)
All right, listen, here we go. Listen, like I said, I’ve never been stressed about podcasts. I’ve done over 150, but you gave me an hour and we’ve only got 50 minutes left. So I’m very stressed. I’m very stressed. So listen, Chris, first of all, let me just say thank you so much. It’s a real honor and privilege. I know you’re not giving many podcasts or interviews and you actually said to me, this is the only one you’re going to give this year. So I’m very grateful for you to give up your time and talk to me. I think this is really important that we have this conversation actually.

Um, it’s going to be a record for, you know, the rest of history and time. So just for those who don’t know, I’ll have done an introduction blurb about you. So, you know, giving the background, but you, you’re basically, basically you spent 40 years studying aluminum. Can I take you back Chris? Why did you get into aluminum?

Chris Exley (00:52.29)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (00:56.132)
Oh, you haven’t read my book. Is that what you’re telling me now? Listen, yeah. What? How did I get in there? I want, you know, yeah, exactly. And one of the, one of the reasons for writing that book, yeah, absolutely. One of the reasons for writing that book is a sort of autobiography, a sort of autobiography. And it tells the story of,

Ahmad (00:59.694)
The aluminium, if you’re an atom, if you’re the aluminium atom.

Imagine you’re an aluminium atom. Yep. Yep. Yep. But I want to hear it from you. I want to hear it from you.

Chris Exley (01:26.5)
a young man who had to go somewhere to university, was interested in biology. And his other interest was fishing. I used to love going fishing, course fishing, sea fishing, trout fishing, salmon fishing. And this university, it’s called Stirling up in Scotland. They had their own trout lock, not to mention the fact they were surrounded by some of the best salmon rivers. So I thought to myself, hmmm…

It’s like a good place for me. And then when I looked at it a bit more closely, and actually I never visited the place before I went. But when I looked at it more closely, I also saw it had this place called the Institute of Aquaculture. So it had a whole Institute that was all about fish farming and fish. I thought, well, this has got to be where I’ve got to go. So that’s where I applied to go. And that’s where I went. But I had, so I, it’s a four year course in Scotland. All the degree courses are four years.

And for the first three years, I did biology and enjoyed doing the fishing. And then in the final year, I had to do a research project. And in that time, which is now about 1984, 83, 84, one of the big environmental issues was acid rain. So the problem of lakes, rivers,

Ahmad (02:48.206)
Hmm.

Chris Exley (02:52.388)
trees, catchments becoming acidified and death of fish, death of trees without any obvious explanation. And this was happening in Scotland. It was happening in North America. It was happening in Northern Europe and Scandinavia. And so I got sort of wind of an idea that something called aluminium might have a role to play in this. So I put a project…

idea to a supervisor within the Institute of Aquaculture and said, could I look at aluminium toxicity in salmon for my research project to finish off my undergraduate degree? And I said, yes, I did that. And as the you know, I used the old joke that from that moment on, I was hooked. I was the one on the end of the hook and the hook was…

researching to aluminium, because I suddenly realised why I’m not sure. Maybe it’s just fate. But this was a story that was much, much bigger than a one to do with fish and fish physiology. And that’s what really caught my attention. I was never ever going to be a fish physiologist. Yes, I loved fishing, but I didn’t want to work on fish for all of my life.

Ahmad (04:07.116)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (04:17.572)
But the fish gave me an insight into this really fascinating metal that just captivated me. And then from that moment onwards, I tried to get funding to do a PhD, which is what I did. I managed to get what was then Britain’s largest chemical company, Imperial Chemical Industries, ICI, to fund a PhD project, where I met my father in science, J .D. Burchill.

who was there leading scientist, ICI’s leading scientist at the time, him and I hit it off and the rest is history, so to say. So we worked together until his untimely death in 1995.

Is that a good starter?

Ahmad (05:03.534)
Wow, and that’s a great start. And so just for people who don’t know, you’re a doctor, a PhD doctor, a proper doctor, and you’re also, you were a professor as well. And if you just do a pub search with your name, it comes up with almost 300 papers. Is that right? You’ve published and co -authored that many papers on aluminium?

Chris Exley (05:28.164)
Well, I would say, yeah, I mean, I, I haven’t looked recently because I’ve been out of the loop a little bit. And I also have, because I’m no longer in academia, I don’t have the same tools available to me. So I only have the same tools as anybody else’s Joe blog would have. Um, but in terms of peer reviewed papers, they’re probably about 220.

Ahmad (05:43.372)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (05:52.836)
And then if you then add everything else and book chapters and stuff like that, then it’s probably getting up close to 300. That’s correct. Yeah. But it’s been, it’s been, you know, it’s been a lifetime. You know, one of the things that I always try to emphasize is, and, you know, I try to do this through my, you know, through my sub stack, but I often feel like I’m failing to make people understand. What does it take?

Ahmad (06:00.398)
It’s not that many, is it?

You

Chris Exley (06:23.3)
to become something that other people call Mr. Aluminium. What does it actually take? And, you know, I use an interesting, perhaps an interesting analogy. There’s a wonderful country singer called George Jones, who has one of the greatest country voices of all time. But one of the things that George Jones always used to say was that he had to be the song before he could sing it.

Ahmad (06:32.782)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (06:53.828)
So him and the song were the same thing. And then that’s why it was powerful. That’s why people loved his work. And that’s what happened to me. You know, I, that’s why I made, what’s why I insisted against the publishers recommendations, let’s cut it that way, that my book was called Imagine You’re an Aluminium Atom, because that is how I have worked. Not right at the beginning, because I had to do,

Ahmad (07:05.966)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (07:23.492)
the learning for the first 10 or 15 years, but the next 20, 25 years, that was always my philosophy. Imagine you’re an aluminium atom, and I’m a huge fan of Charles Darwin. So I then put it into the context of natural selection. And then I have a framework in which to understand something. And I think…

Because of that framework, I still understand, even though I’ve been out of the loop for a few years, I still understand aluminium better than anyone else on this planet because I have been trained to do so. But then I get so many questions about other things and when and I frustrate people because I say, well, look, I don’t have that expertise. I can’t tell you that. I only have an opinion on that. My opinion may or may not be any better than yours. But ask me about aluminium and I will.

Ahmad (08:15.199)
Yeah.

Chris Exley (08:15.524)
really go into the decks that I have available and tell you what I know.

Ahmad (08:21.454)
So let’s talk about aluminium. I think aluminium is fascinating. You know, it’s the third most abundant element in the crust of the earth, along with oxygen and silica. But the really crazy thing that I find, the paradox like you’ve talked about as well in your book and your substacks, is that you’ve got this thing that’s so abundant, except it’s got absolutely no function in biology, in nature, in animals or plants. We don’t…

Chris Exley (08:33.668)
Yep.

Ahmad (08:51.118)
actually have any homeostasis, any transporters, any metabolism that involves aluminium despite being so abundant. And is it right that aluminium, aluminium salts, they didn’t really get into our biology until about 1886 when you started getting mass production of aluminium.

Chris Exley (09:01.892)
Yeah.

Ahmad (09:14.542)
I mean, it was discovered earlier. Aluminium was discovered earlier in the 1800s, but you got mass production of aluminium in the late 1800s. And that’s when it started finding its way into our human bodies. Is that correct?

Chris Exley (09:26.86)
Yeah, that’s spot on. I mean, that’s what I call the, that’s why I say that we live in the aluminium age. I mean, obviously, you know, one thing’s sure. Yes, we learned how to make aluminium metal before that. But that metal was so rare that it was actually cost more than gold or diamonds at the time. But once we’d actually perfected a way of taking a lump of rock,

Ahmad (09:46.734)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Chris Exley (09:54.596)
And from that lump of rock producing a metal, smelting it to create aluminium metal from which you can then dissolve it to create aluminium salts and compounds. That was the end of the 19th century. And that is the advent of the aluminium age. And prior to that, in nature, there will always have been very, very small circumstances somewhere on the earth where some aluminium would have been

released. But to only probably to the extent that it was just immediately toxic and then never had an opportunity to go from being toxic to useful to essential. You know, oxygen was toxic, but it became useful and then essential calcium was toxic when it first but it became but aluminium never went along that route.

There was no evidence that it was even selected out as such. Selection out often infers that you have a biochemistry which decides, decides, I shouldn’t say that, which then removes or negates the effects of something. Whereas in aluminium, we see no evidence for that. I mean, you pointed out the…

100 % reason why I was hooked. Because here we had the most abundant metal in the Earth’s crust, the third most abundant element, with absolutely no known biology today, or no evidence of it in the past. There are no, I say, you know, no footprints in the sand to find that aluminium was at some point used by biota.

Ahmad (11:43.318)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (11:48.708)
in any positive way whatsoever. And of course, you know, that in itself is a wonderful, a great story. But then you say, so why is it? And of course you say, well, actually it’s aluminium and silicon and oxygen make up the Earth’s crust. So what was silicon doing? Silicon was keeping aluminium out of living things. And that’s…

Ahmad (12:08.726)
Mmm.

Ahmad (12:16.556)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (12:18.18)
That was, if you’re a believer, you know, that was God’s intention. He knew that aluminium was required to create the rocks of the Earth’s crust, but you needed something to keep it from getting out of that and going into living things. And bearing in mind that the Earth’s crust is dissolved all the time. Mountains grow, mountains dissolve. So when a mountain dissolves, it also means…

that the aluminium silicon oxygen rocks dissolve and when they dissolve aluminium does come out but the first thing it sees is soluble silicon, silicic acid. It forms these things that we’ve called hydroxyaluminous silicates and they are you the precursors to clays and things of that sort so they keep the aluminium tight and out of living things as well so it’s just a

Ahmad (12:54.016)
Hmm

Chris Exley (13:16.068)
a fabulous and wonderful cycle. And that’s why it’s the greatest story sort of never told. And without that wonderful chemistry, there’s no question that life on earth would have been completely different to what it is today. I’m pretty confident there would have been some form of life because generations and generations of things that can reproduce rapidly like bacteria would eventually find some sort of

Ahmad (13:22.966)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (13:45.912)
way of living with aluminium or even using it because it’s not unusable. It’s just that if you’ve spent the vast majority of biochemical evolution with it not being present, then you’ve never had the time and the generations for it to become in any way usable and then potentially essential. And if the moment when you decide that you’re going to give the

Ahmad (13:50.06)
Mmm.

Ahmad (14:04.866)
Yeah.

Chris Exley (14:15.3)
the world is present of biologically available aluminium is the end of the 19th century. You’re in big trouble because it’s going to take generations before that aluminium might is something you can live with. And that’s our mistake. We made that mistake.

Ahmad (14:23.182)
Yep, yep.

Ahmad (14:31.341)
I mean, I, yeah, I mean, there’s some people exactly. There’s some people who don’t believe in evolution, but I think everyone can accept that animals, plants, humans, you know, they adapt to their circumstances. And the longer you have time wise to adapt your body, your physiology, um, the more chance that, you know, you can adapt and not have problems with it. But if you are suddenly exposed to something that you’re not normally exposed to and this toxic or poison,

you’re not going to fare very well. And it’s funny at the end of the 1800s, we also had the introduction of seed oils, vegetable oil, rapeseed oil, which has never ever been in the human diet before. You know, the human diet, the human body has never seen these foreign oils before. And then along with aluminium, suddenly you’ve got these things and you know, a hundred years sounds like a long time, but in terms of evolutionary biology, it’s nothing. It’s a blink of the eye. So let’s just go back to aluminium. Now we’ve started

Chris Exley (15:26.02)
That’s nothing. Yeah. Yeah.

Ahmad (15:31.342)
producing it. And it’s a funny way that they produce it. It’s very energy intensive. So for every kilogram of aluminium, I think you need something like 20 kilograms of oil or fuel. And it’s very, very high compared to other steels, which is like just a double, like one or two kilograms of. So you’ve got this very energy intensive process, but what you get is this lightweight malleable, you know, metal, and it’s used for airplanes, for tin foils.

It’s using cosmetics, it’s using vaccines, it’s used for pots and pans. I mean, it’s just like this wonder metal. So tell me, like, how does it start to get into our…

Chris Exley (16:08.388)
Yeah, it is.

Don’t forget what you what you’ve just pointed out. Yeah, what you just pointed out, Daman, about the amount of energy that is required to make aluminium metal. So that energy is stored in the aluminium metal. So that’s why it’s a rocket fuel.

So that’s why without aluminium, we wouldn’t have got out of the Earth’s atmosphere to go to the moon or wherever we may or may not have been. That’s why it’s used in aircraft fuels. That’s why, unfortunately, when people remember the two towers burning, they burned in the way that they did because the aluminium was ignited and it released huge amounts of energy. We saw it in our country at Grenfell, exactly the same situation.

The aluminium reached its essentially point at which it ignited and then it burned with the ferocity. I mean, people do aluminium welding for a reason because of the heat that you get from it. So the energy that it takes to make aluminium metal has to go somewhere when you then use that. So it’s a very important point that you brought up.

Ahmad (17:26.126)
Yeah, that’s a law of physics, isn’t it? Energy is never destroyed or created. It’s just converted from one medium and formed to another. I’ve forgotten what that law is. And that’s all. Yeah. And then I think it’s electrolysis they use now, high amounts of electricity. And I’m now going to go down another rabbit hole, but I think a large byproduct of the aluminium manufacturing processing is fluoride. And these corporations never like to waste anything. And…

Chris Exley (17:33.932)
Absolutely.

Chris Exley (17:52.034)
Mmm.

Ahmad (17:56.206)
I’m sure about this. I’ve read about this, but the manufacturers are like, what are we going to do with all this fluoride? You know, this waste product. And, you know, they don’t like wasting anything. Everything needs to be money and profit. So suddenly someone came up with a great idea. Why don’t we put fluoride in the water and in toothpaste and, you know, and it strengthens it. And just like aluminium, the commonality is there is no physiological process that requires fluoride. There is no biological process that involves it. It is.

Chris Exley (17:56.548)
No.

Chris Exley (18:03.62)
Yeah.

Chris Exley (18:25.174)
No.

Ahmad (18:25.902)
toxic. So it’s just funny that I think that the relationship between fluoride and aluminium is quite interesting. Both these toxic chemicals that end up in the human body. Maybe a lot of it is just being driven by money, profit and greed.

Chris Exley (18:36.908)
Yeah.

Chris Exley (18:41.124)
And don’t forget, don’t forget one of those. Yeah, don’t forget that the other aspect of this is that of course that fluoride binds aluminium at quite low pH. And what that means is that aluminium would normally once it’s gone from a very low pH to a mildly acidic pH, it would want to, it would want to come out of solution, it want to form hydroxide.

But if fluoride is there, it prevents that, or at least it delays that process. And that means that when you have a combination of fluoride and aluminium, let’s say in the human gut, it gives aluminium a greater opportunity to be absorbed through the gut before it starts to form more insoluble products such as the hydroxide. So fluoride enables aluminium also to get into the body.

So you’ve got that other aspect of it. I mean, in many ways, you see, I’ve argued over and over again, and you’ve probably read it also on my substrack. And I will continue to argue this until someone proves otherwise. That fluoride itself is not the issue here. Fluoride is enabling aluminium to get into the body. And that’s why fluoride influences the IQ of children. It’s got nothing to do with fluoride per se. It’s to do with bringing aluminium…

Ahmad (19:34.958)
Mmm.

Ahmad (19:42.23)
Yeah.

Ahmad (19:45.59)
Yeah.

Chris Exley (20:00.138)
larger amounts of aluminium in your everyday exposure into the body and in this case into the brain.

Ahmad (20:08.014)
Right, okay. So let’s talk about aluminium. Yeah, let’s talk about aluminium getting into your body. So you can ingest it, you can drink it, you can eat it. Your skin is an organ that absorbs. You can inhale. I mean, how does aluminium get into the average person and how much aluminium are we talking about? Are we talking about meniscus amounts? Are we talking about big amounts? If you go on the Wikipedia page, it says something crazy like,

Chris Exley (20:11.46)
So that is a rabbit hole.

Chris Exley (20:20.642)
Hmm.

Ahmad (20:38.158)
the human body can absorb four grams of, you know, aluminium per every 70 kilogram adult. I mean, and then it’s safe to do. So I don’t know where they get these numbers or, you know, things from, but tell me how does aluminium get into the body? And for the Americans, it’s aluminium. Aluminium and aluminium for the rest of the world.

Chris Exley (20:49.334)
No.

Chris Exley (20:56.1)
The game? A little bit, yeah.

you know, all these nonsense data come from the World Health Organization. They’re the origin of all nonsense data. And now, you in the old, when I was a working young scientist, I used to look at the WHO stuff on aluminium, I used to think to myself, how can they get this so wrong? How is everything that they produced?

Ahmad (21:07.596)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Exley (21:28.164)
on aluminium and human health so wrong. And I sort of start to realise later on in life, well, if they got everything wrong about aluminium, then they must be getting everything wrong about a lot of other things too. And I think we know that now because of COVID, etc. So we know the nature of this organisation. It’s a complete joke. But anyway, you know, the question of how…

Ahmad (21:41.728)
Oh yes.

Chris Exley (21:56.164)
If someone says to me, right, Chris, if I had to avoid one form of exposure to aluminium, what would it be? I think my answer would be to avoid inhalation via the nose.

Lung is bad too. But the worrying factor about the nose is that it’s the olfactory system. The olfactory system enables a direct passage to the hippocampus. You know, there’s a very good reason why people who like recreational drugs tend to snort them tend to take them through the nose because the access to the brain is so much more quick quicker. And the same is absolutely true of aluminium.

Ahmad (22:32.59)
Mmm.

Ahmad (22:44.526)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Exley (22:46.788)
So a long time ago when I was, I mean, I’ve been, I’ve talked to a lot of people within industry over the years. And of course I grew up within Imperial Chemical Industries. So I was funded by industry. I was never afraid of industry. And I did some work with Procter & Gamble. And if nothing else that came out of that, I said to Procter & Gamble, well, the one thing you need to do is they’re making a lot of antiperspirants, which contain aluminium. I said, the one thing you really should do is not.

do any more aerosols because aerosol is a definite way whereby somebody can get a rather quick exposure to aluminium and it will go directly to your brain which is probably the area you least like it to go. Whereas a topical application in this

Ahmad (23:38.094)
So most people listening will be, but most people listening will be like, well, I’m not getting any aerosol aluminum. So can you just expand like what kind of products would cause an aerosol dispersion of aluminum?

Chris Exley (23:48.548)
Huh.

Chris Exley (23:54.008)
The obvious one is something like an antiperspirant. That’s the obvious one. And that’s what they are. They’re aerosols of aluminium salts. But of course, the other aspect of that is that everything you will take in particulate aluminium through the air. And also just through a lot of everyday type products.

Ahmad (24:01.132)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (24:21.494)
air freshener type products and things like this, but those, you know, yeah, you will take them in. And also, of course, the lung is another area that we have to be we should be more concerned about because the lung is this huge surface area over which particulate aluminium in particular can accumulate. And with time, it can actually go.

again, inside the body. I think I write about this in the book about an interesting paper where they were looking at what happens to people who went to the edge of a volcano and you have a look down and while you’re up there, you’re sort of absorbing whatever’s in the air at the time. And then they took the urine samples from these people and they took them, you know, the first urine sample,

Ahmad (25:04.014)
Mm.

Ahmad (25:10.252)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (25:14.884)
that had been there, so within a few hours probably, and their urine was full of aluminium. So within a relatively short period of time, you can take in aluminium through the nose and through the lung and it goes into the blood and it will go through the kidney and end up in the urine. I mean, the gut is a sort of, it’s not a red herring as such, but it,

Ahmad (25:21.422)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (25:43.524)
If you’re someone working for the aluminium industry, you’re sort of prepared to say, yeah, well, there will be a bit of absorption by the, in other words, it’s one of those things you, you, you’ll give a bit of that away, that the glut might be important, but it’s only these amounts and this, that and the other, and they make provisors. But actually, I did this when I wrote my book, I looked as deeply as possible into the actual research.

which looked at absorption of aluminium across the gut. And it’s completely equivocal in truth. And the best piece of work I saw was not where they… So a lot of the time this work involved catheterizing people’s hepatic port of vein, taking blood from there to see what had got absorbed across the gut.

Ahmad (26:16.406)
Hmm.

Chris Exley (26:38.276)
But another group I saw simply measured the amount of aluminium in, and then they collected the feces and measured the amount of aluminium out in the feces. And they could only account for around 70 % of aluminium. So the feces, including that that comes from the bile, from the liver, etc. That only accounted for 70%. Now that means 30%.

Ahmad (26:39.116)
Mmm.

Ahmad (26:55.232)
Hmm.

Ahmad (27:00.46)
Hmm

Chris Exley (27:05.252)
is somewhere else means 30 % is at least getting into the body. Now, the aluminium industries tell you it’s less than 1 % because that’s what some of these other studies using catheterised veins, etc. may show. So, you know, do I do make it? Yeah.

Ahmad (27:10.894)
Yeah.

Ahmad (27:25.389)
Well, let’s just talk about that. Let’s just talk about that. So just in case people don’t understand, hepatic vein catheterization, what does that mean? So all the blood that drains from the stomach and the intestines, that’s where all the food is, that’s got a separate blood supply that goes directly to the liver, not to the heart and the general circulation system. And that’s called the hepatic vein system and portal vein. And so all that blood goes to the liver and the liver is like a factory and it

Chris Exley (27:45.188)
Yeah.

Ahmad (27:55.31)
you know, gets rid of all the toxins, it breaks down the food, it packages energy, makes protein hormones, all that kind of stuff. So, you know, putting a catheter into that vein and measuring it, I mean, it’s very interventional. It’s, you know, you will only get a few people where you will be doing that too, because it’s risky, it’s dangerous, it’s expensive. It’s much easier just simply measuring the feces for aluminium. So, and like, and you know, Chris, and I know,

Chris Exley (28:12.644)
Yeah.

Ahmad (28:23.758)
how studies can be engineered and manufactured and doctored and corrupted. So yeah, I’m not surprised that aluminium manufacturers are telling only 1 % of aluminium being absorbed by the body. So maximum, bloody hell. Right, so you’re ingesting it. And one of the things I just want to quickly say, you said inhaling for deodorants and antiperspirants. It’s kind of funny that because antiperspirants, I’ve never really…

Chris Exley (28:37.602)
Maximum 1 %

Chris Exley (28:49.444)
me.

Ahmad (28:53.71)
I’ve never used them because sweating is also a way that your body detoxes. It’s a physiological process. And why would you want to stop that physiological process? And why are you going to stop the body detoxing? And one of the ways, if I’m not mistaken of getting aluminium out of your body is also sweating. And so if you’re not able to sweat, then you’re not going to get rid of the aluminium. So it’s kind of like doubly bad for you using these antiperspirants. Am I right?

Chris Exley (28:59.236)
Mm.

Chris Exley (29:10.39)
Yes.

Chris Exley (29:14.596)
Yeah. No, that’s a, I mean, that, that’s, I think, a very important point that one of the things you’re doing in the area of the underarm, in particular, because that’s perhaps where you are most likely to apply your antiperspirant, is you’re not only putting aluminium onto the surface of the underarm, but you’re preventing the aluminium that would normally come out of the sweat glands in those areas from coming out. So it’s accumulating

Ahmad (29:18.958)
Okay.

Ahmad (29:33.166)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Exley (29:44.452)
in that tissue. And I think, you know, I mean my…

I, we did some work on aluminium in relation to breast cancer, and we’ve done aluminium content of breast biopsies. And we have found aluminium always in those tissues, and we always find more aluminium closer to the underarm than further away on the breast. So there’s something in that argument that you are accumulating aluminium in breast tissue.

Ahmad (30:13.582)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (30:19.684)
in the area closer to the underarm. You know, at that time I was…

Ahmad (30:25.294)
Didn’t you also do a study on mastectomies as well, if I’m not mistaken? And you noticed that there was higher dosages of, yeah, yeah, not just the biopsies. We’re talking about you actually took the whole breast tissue. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Exley (30:32.74)
That was on mastectomies. Yeah. Yeah, that was on mastectomies. Oh, yeah, sorry. It was, yeah, it was it was tissue that had been removed from people with breast cancer. Yeah. As opposed to just…

Ahmad (30:47.406)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I’ll just clarify. Yeah.

Chris Exley (30:52.162)
Yeah, so we just we only had mastectomies, we didn’t have any control tissue. But what we looked at was the distribution of aluminium across the breast and there are four recognised segments of the breast and we looked at and it was always in that one up here. I’m doing something you can’t see. But it’s in the area closest to the underarm where we found always found the highest concentrations for each individual. You know, that work was followed up by

Ahmad (30:57.784)
Right. Right.

Chris Exley (31:20.9)
beautiful piece of epidemiological work by a PhD student at the time, Caroline Linhart, and we published her work. And I’m absolutely convinced now because of particularly because of her work, that there is a relationship between aluminium and breast cancer.

Ahmad (31:43.052)
Hmm.

Right. Well, I mean, that goes on to chapter 12 of your book. I mean, you listed 38 conditions, diseases, chronic diseases, that potentially might have aluminium as a causative or exacerbating factor. I mean, I thought that was incredible. I mean, we’re talking, and you know, classically, most people nowadays because of the controversy think of, you know, autism.

Chris Exley (31:54.646)
Hmm.

Ahmad (32:13.006)
but it’s Alzheimer’s, it’s Parkinson’s, it’s breast cancer, it’s asthma. Can you just talk about and expand about that and what your research found and how that’s related please?

Chris Exley (32:13.772)
Alzheimer’s, yeah.

Chris Exley (32:24.228)
Well, yeah, I mean, the purpose of that table, which I originally produced for a chapter in a book I wrote called Aluminium and Medicine. And so I originally produced that table then. And I, you know, I tried to say, well, what are the, you in my opinion, based upon all the evidence that I’ve been able to get, are we, you know,

10 out of 10 sure that aluminium has a role in that disease or five out of 10 that it has a role. So I was looking at everything that I had to give people who were interested at least some sort of perspective which diseases one might be looking out for. And for my book, I brought that table as up to date as possible.

Ahmad (33:10.092)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (33:18.084)
based upon our own research, which we’ve done a lot since the previous table was published. And obviously the other research that was available to me. And you know, I’ve often had people say to me, well, Chris, you think aluminium causes everything? And I stop for a moment when people say that to me. And I say, look, when you know that…

Ahmad (33:38.444)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (33:46.276)
the Al3 plus Cata and the aluminium iron when you know that it can make strong binding bind very strongly with the majority of the essential functional groups of human biochemistry then it’s not about whether aluminium can disrupt a system maybe produce a disease it’s more about

Does it have access to that system to do it? Because if it has access, it will do it. It will disrupt. So it’s not like other types of metals which have a much more limited binding capacity. They will only bind certain types of groups on proteins and things. So they are more limited in terms of their potential disruption.

Ahmad (34:37.292)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (34:46.692)
You know, aluminium binds all oxygen -based functional groups. And I would probably, I guess you’re talking about 75 % of all biochemistry relies on oxygen -based functional groups. So yes, aluminium has the potential to be involved in myriad diseases, human diseases. But then we’re…

Ahmad (34:53.75)
Yep.

Chris Exley (35:15.3)
the question we’re always asking is, okay, but can it and why and how does it get access? And then as we did with our brain tissue work, is it there? Because if it isn’t there, it’s not making a major contribution. But of course, then we start to show for and specifically without Cymas disease, that it is there. And not only is it there, it’s there in

significant amounts, really significant amounts. And then if we take, yep.

Ahmad (35:48.91)
Right, before we get there, I want to talk about that paper. But just for the listeners who don’t understand, I think this is an important point. And I’m going to talk about this, your seminal paper. You know, Al3 +, what does that mean? So aluminium is a light metal. It’s got 13 electrons, 13 protons. But you can also, Al3 +, is when it loses three electrons. So it’s now got 13 protons and only 10 electrons.

Chris Exley (36:06.468)
Yeah.

Chris Exley (36:14.692)
Yeah.

Ahmad (36:17.518)
And what this means it’s a superoxide. It can really, you know, it’s very oxidative, like what you’re saying. So it’s a very reactive, so bioreactive. So although it’s not in our biology, in our normal biological processes, it is a very bioreactive. And, you know, in our body, biology is chemical reactions ultimately. And so you’ve got this thing that’s not normally found in the body, in the body, and it’s reacting, like you said, with the normal tissue structures, proteins.

Chris Exley (36:38.308)
Mm -hmm.

Ahmad (36:46.67)
around it. And the question is, how does that then affect normal physiological process? And I think it only makes sense. I think everyone listening, without even being a scientist, would be like, all right, so you’ve got something that’s not meant to be in the machinery of the body and it’s sticking and welding onto things. Well, surely something’s going to go a little bit haywire and you know, the machinery is going to get clogged up somewhere. So I think that’s, I think that just makes sense. You know,

Chris Exley (36:53.892)
Okay.

Chris Exley (37:11.972)
Absolutely. I mean, yeah, I mean you raise a good point again there because what you’ve raised is this.

This method, I mean, you know, one of the things the aluminium industry always used to say, it just made me laugh, that it’s not very reactive. I mean, nothing could be further from the truth. And not only that, why is it being used so extensively in just thousands and thousands of applications if it’s not very reactive anyway? But the truth is, of course, it’s extremely biologically reactive. Now, if it, if…

Ahmad (37:32.846)
Right?

Chris Exley (37:50.646)
Because we know that, we also know that it either should be a useful stroke essential metal in the body, or we should be able to see footprints of where it’s been selected out. And we don’t see either of these. So we know that this metal did not play any role in biochemical evolution until man introduced it to the

Ahmad (38:00.972)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (38:19.24)
as biologically available aluminium to human beings and the rest. Don’t forget that when acid rain is a product of man, man acidifies the soils, the aluminium comes out, it kills the fish and the trees. Another example would be acid sulfate soils killing, again, man does intensive agriculture.

Ahmad (38:35.052)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (38:43.556)
through intensive agriculture, you acidify soils that shouldn’t be acidic, the aluminium comes out and causes damage. All examples of aluminium damage, whether in the natural environment or in humans, are due to man, 100%. So, you know, the evidence is paramount on this. But good that you raised that again.

Ahmad (39:00.302)
100%.

Ahmad (39:07.95)
Yep. So you’re going to love this and you’re going to be thinking initially, what the hell is he on about? But my in -laws live in rock. Do you know where rock is?

Chris Exley (39:19.428)
in France? No.

Ahmad (39:21.496)
No, Rock Rock is a little village opposite Padstow and it sits on the camel estuary.

Chris Exley (39:28.804)
Okay, well I had my honeymoon in Pat’s toe so I should know it.

Ahmad (39:33.358)
It’s when you stand on bad stone look across the camel estuary you see the little village rock anyway, um, so the camel estuary Yeah, well you had the camel ford incident Yeah, where this guy? accidentally put a whole ton of aluminium into the water treatment plant and it poisoned the whole of the water system and The government did an investigation and said nothing to see

Chris Exley (39:39.14)
Yeah, that’s rock. Yeah, I knew it was going to be the name.

Chris Exley (39:45.86)
Yeah.

Chris Exley (39:54.722)
Yeah.

Ahmad (40:03.245)
the water is perfectly safe to drink. And people were ringing up going, my water tastes metal, metallic. And they’re like, oh, it’s fine, it’s fine. Just, it’s fine. What was that all about? Can you tell the listeners what happened? And was it safe or was that just a cover up?

Chris Exley (40:04.676)
Alright.

Chris Exley (40:10.532)
Yeah.

Chris Exley (40:20.42)
exactly what you’ve said and in 1988 the delivery driver went to deliver the aluminium salts that are normally used for treatments and we successfully use aluminium salts to treat potable water and most of the time that’s not a massive health issue but

he made the mistake of not putting the aluminium salts into the storage tank. He simply put it directly into the mains water supply of Camelford and the surrounding areas, an area supporting about 20 ,000 people. And the amount of, I mean, the concentration of aluminium in the water, the first sort of slugs of aluminium rich water that went through

Camelford Village and other places was so high that the viscosity of the water changed. It made it more, the water thickened almost and under because of the huge amounts of aluminium that were present in that water. And obviously you had in the first instance, a massive slug of

highly concentrated aluminium water went through, but then all of that aluminium sticks to the whole system. So the aluminium content of the water in the Camelford region stayed at, well, let’s say 10 to 100 times higher than it is supposed to be inverted commas for several weeks. And the only

Ahmad (41:47.982)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (42:05.708)
advice that was given to the people living there immediate advice was, oh, well, if it doesn’t taste very nice, mix it with orange juice or something of that sort. Now, you could not have suggested something more ridiculous than that because orange juice contains citric acid and citric acid and citrate enables aluminium to cross the gut more easily. So, oh, yes, you might have made the water taste slightly better, but you were

Ahmad (42:31.726)
Oh god.

Chris Exley (42:35.724)
increasing the amount of aluminium that goes into these people. Now, obviously what happened then, it was literally months before the government were about to sell all of the water authorities to go private. So it’s privatisation of the water industry and under no circumstances were they going to let the privatisation of the water industry not take place. So it was completely and utterly covered up.

Ahmad (42:54.314)
Hmm.

Ahmad (43:00.79)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (43:04.228)
The truth is, even though there’s been several inquiries since and the last one, I mean, I was in Taunton Coroner’s Court in, was it 2012, 2013 on this. The last one was, you know, report was something like 10 years ago now. And even that was a complete fabrication. And if people read my book, they’ll get a really good history of this. They’ll know that.

Ahmad (43:17.1)
Mm.

Chris Exley (43:32.484)
you know, government officials can totally controlled exactly what went into that report. And it was, it was quite sinister, actually, people, people who were working on this report, on behalf of the government part of something called the Committee on toxicity, suddenly lost their jobs, because they were not going to go along with the cover up. I mean, it was quite a sinister time. But the only thing that

Ahmad (43:59.758)
Listen, stop going all conspiratorial on me. You know, governments never lie. Governments care about us. We love the government. Okay? Right?

Chris Exley (44:05.588)
No. Yeah. Yeah. So we were able to do quite a few analyses on people who died in that area who had been exposed. And the most famous one, and he won’t mind me saying this, was the wife of the wife of someone who I already knew called Doug Cross.

Ahmad (44:24.172)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (44:33.336)
Doug Cross has been a working ecologist for many, many years. And he contacted me when his wife died to say, would it be possible to do an autopsy on his wife’s brain? So I actually got one of the world’s leading neuropathologists at Oxford University, Margaret Assiri, Professor Margaret Assiri to do that. She found his wife died of a very rare form of Alzheimer’s disease.

not genetic, but a rare manifestation of the disease. And she then sent me tissues, both from the deceased, but also from others. And we found huge amounts of aluminium in the brain of this Mrs. Cross. And that was just at the moment when this cover -up report was supposed to have been published. So they conceded to put something in on that. That’s when we had to go to the coroner’s court.

Ahmad (45:11.02)
Hmm.

Chris Exley (45:33.252)
This is the first time in that coroner’s court when Michael Rose the coroner now retired, his narrative was that aluminium was responsible for this, for her death, but he wasn’t able to say that that aluminium came from the Camberford incident. And of course you can’t, but it’s the first time that someone said that the case of Alzheimer’s disease was caused by aluminium in a court.

Ahmad (45:34.316)
Mmm.

Ahmad (45:53.294)
Yep, yep, yep.

Ahmad (46:02.766)
Wow. Right. I want to, I want to get onto that paper of yours, but before I do, you said something about, you know, aluminium being added to the potable water and for the treatment. Forgive me, but it sounds like we’re kind of contradicting ourselves. You know, why are we putting it in water when it’s not meant to be in our, in our, in our bodies? Like surely that’s not a good idea. Or is the cytotoxic property great at just basically killing all the bacteria and

and the body kind of secretes it. Can you just explain that a little bit to me?

Chris Exley (46:38.532)
Well, imagine if you turn on your tap, your cold tap and the water is brown.

Ahmad (46:47.47)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (46:47.652)
Now that is how it would be if we simply took water collected in our reservoirs and brought it directly to our point of use. We might include some antibacterial agent like chlorine just to make sure that there are no bugs in it. But if we did absolutely no treatment inverted commas of the water, it would be brown.

or various colors of brown. Would the consumer accept that? I don’t know. But the reason why we use aluminium salts right at the beginning of the treatment process, before it goes into the pipeline to our houses, is because it precipitates all of that brown, which is actually organic material. It’s just living material that is in the water, dead materials, all sorts of algae, everything.

Ahmad (47:39.822)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (47:46.212)
the aluminium is brilliant at precipitating it and taking it out. And actually, the reason why we have limits on the amount of aluminium allowed in tap water, which is 50 parts per billion is the acceptable level. 200 parts per billion or 0 .2 milligrams per litre is the maximum allowable level.

The only reason we have these limits, people think it’s for health issues, it’s got nothing to do with health. It’s when they use aluminium to clean a water, they put the water against a how clean does it look index, a crystallinity type index. And when the water is a certain cleanliness, they look at how much aluminium is left over. 50, that’s the point. Or 200 sometimes is acceptable, but it’s not quite as good.

crystal clean as the other one. And that’s all it is. It’s nothing to do with health. People think the EU regulation on aluminium in water is 50 parts per billion because they’re worried about our health. Rubbish. They’re only doing it because it’s a way means of determining the aesthetic quality of the water. So that’s why we use aluminium salts. And you know, they do work brilliantly well.

Ahmad (49:08.458)
Wow.

Chris Exley (49:13.956)
So if you don’t want to drink potable water that still contains quite a lot of organic material that’s come from the collection of it, whether it be a river or a reservoir, wherever it is rainfall, then you have to have treated water.

Ahmad (49:32.078)
Okay, next, when that water is treated and you got the aluminium salts and it’s precipitated, does that become a slurry? Does it, you know, sediment and then it’s not actually in the tap water as much? Or does that, or does it get diluted in the tap water anyway and you drink it? Or does it, most of it get, you know, siphoned off?

Chris Exley (49:40.644)
Yeah, yeah, it’s all in there.

Chris Exley (49:49.732)
Well, yeah, it goes after it’s gone through an aluminium treatment, it goes through filter beds. So all of the aluminium precipitated material is removed. Don’t ask me where that goes, because I actually don’t know. I suspect it goes to landfill. So the aluminium has another chance to come back somewhere else.

Ahmad (50:03.022)
Mmm. Okay.

Ahmad (50:09.294)
Okay, now for that –

No, no. Okay. That, but that makes sense. That makes sense. Okay. I’m happy with that one. Um, but I mean, am I right that a lot of the drinking water these days, I mean, I’ve heard various reports that, you know, it’s full of heavy metals, insecticides, pesticides, hormones, you name it. Actually drinking water from the tap isn’t actually a safe thing to do. Would you agree with that?

Chris Exley (50:38.692)
I live, where I live, the water is super.

I have no worries about it.

Ahmad (50:45.324)
Lucky you.

Chris Exley (50:49.282)
If you ask me the same question, would I drink the water if I’m staying in the…

Ahmad (50:50.124)
Okay.

Ahmad (50:58.592)
London or New York. Yeah.

Chris Exley (50:58.628)
hotel at Houston. No, I would never drink the water. The main reason being that some waters, in the case of where I live, our water is collected, it will be treated, it comes to our tap, it goes to waste. Whereas in many other places now, they are recycling it. And if you start to recycle water,

Ahmad (51:03.918)
Yeah, okay.

Chris Exley (51:27.62)
eventually levels of undesirables will build up even with an efficient cleaning process. And you know when you talk about all the possible things that could be in water most of the ones you mentioned are organic materials of sorts even if they’re not natural organics some of them are synthetic organics all of those in a good treatment system would still be removed by the aluminium salts but

Ahmad (51:36.748)
Mmm.

Ahmad (51:48.908)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (51:53.956)
once you start to recycle that over and over and over again, no, you’ve got to build up of undesirables. And you also, you know, I think you take the life out of the water. I mean, water is a wonderful thing. It is a life giving thing that we should all drink on a regular basis. So you know, you want to drink good quality water. And are we, and I’m not,

Ahmad (51:59.02)
Mmm.

Ahmad (52:18.318)
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ahmad (52:22.222)
Yeah, I just stole my water.

Chris Exley (52:23.684)
Personally, you know, personally, if I if I was out on the hills doing a walk, and I was thirsty, I wouldn’t think twice about drinking from a stream in the hills, it doesn’t wouldn’t bother me at all. That might be a little bit of organic material or whatever in there. But I think generally, the consumer thinks differently to that. The consumer wants everything to look like whatever they get from the supermarket or something.

Ahmad (52:43.246)
Yeah.

Ahmad (52:48.622)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, I distill my water and I can tell you right now at the end of the distillation and of, you know, I’m cleaning the pot. It absolutely stinks. And there’s this gray, metal -y smelling substance and I don’t like it. And I’m thinking, wow, that, you know, wow, that, that could have gone inside my body. And look, don’t get me wrong. The human body is incredible at getting rid of garbage, but

Chris Exley (53:05.348)
No.

Ahmad (53:15.598)
It’s a burden that it has to do. It has to work hard to get rid of this. So if you can take some of that, you know, work away from it, I think it’s just better for the human body. Anyway, let’s talk about this paper, one of the, you know, 200 plus that you’ve written and published in 2020, you published a seminal paper on aluminum in brain tissue and the editor in chief of the journal of Alzheimer’s disease and JAD is the paper on Alzheimer’s, a guy called

Chris Exley (53:37.54)
Hehehe.

Ahmad (53:45.422)
George Perry, who is one of the foremost scientists in the field of Alzheimer’s disease. He actually called it a landmark paper in linking aluminium to Alzheimer’s disease. I mean, that’s a massive, massive paper. I’ll just share it here. Tell me, how did that go down?

Chris Exley (54:03.364)
Hey.

Chris Exley (54:11.14)
Well, the reason…

Ahmad (54:11.818)
aluminium and amyloid in familiar Alzheimer’s disease.

Chris Exley (54:16.708)
Yeah. Yeah, the reason that we…

We had already shown that individuals who died with the diagnosis of sporadic Alzheimer’s, the type of Alzheimer’s that the vast majority of people who get Alzheimer’s get, we’d already shown a relationship between sporadic Alzheimer’s disease and aluminium. So, you know, it just, I thought, listen, what about,

Ahmad (54:45.006)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (54:52.836)
We know that a small number of people, although now it’s an increasing number of people, a burgeoning number of people, have early onset Alzheimer’s, sometimes in their 40s and 50s and die from it in their 40s, 50s, early 60s. And in these cases, there is nearly always a genetic linkage. So there is a genetic…

potential susceptibility factor there. I think some people would say that some people in the past would say that that, you know, those genetic linkage caused the disease. I didn’t, I’ve never believed that. I just put it down as something which was a susceptibility. But I thought to myself, well, listen, if aluminium is involved in Alzheimer’s disease, then

maybe genetic susceptibility in Alzheimer’s disease is also something to do with genetic susceptibility to, for example, the accumulation of aluminium in brain tissue. So my working hypothesis was if we can get hold of brain tissue from people who died of familial Alzheimer’s disease, the disease with the genetic traits, genetic linkages, and measure its aluminium content, then we should find

Ahmad (56:05.014)
Hmm.

Chris Exley (56:20.644)
significant amounts of aluminium, even though these people are significantly younger than the ones who died with aluminium in their brain with sporadic disease. Well, yeah, we certainly found that it was absolutely the data were incredible. Actually, the amount of aluminium was way higher than anything we expected to find. So we showed in that paper to begin with, at least this that

Ahmad (56:43.534)
Wow.

Chris Exley (56:49.22)
People who died with familial Alzheimer’s disease had some of the highest levels of brain aluminium in their tissue that we’ve ever measured. At the time, they were the highest levels I think we’d measured. We were able to follow that up though with our research using our particular fluorescence marker. So we were actually able then to use something, a fluorescent compound, which is absolutely selective for

Ahmad (57:10.778)
Mm.

Chris Exley (57:19.166)
aluminium only, and we were able to show a very interesting relationship. So the genetic traits in familial Alzheimer’s disease nearly always mean that you produce more of a particular protein called amyloid beta protein. And that has been the protein that has been linked with Alzheimer’s disease from almost the start of our understanding since Alois Alzheimer.

Ahmad (57:21.868)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (57:50.02)
characterize the first case. So what we found was this absolutely intimate relationship actually between aluminium and the amyloid beta protein in the brains of the people with familial outsize disease. And we were able to produce from what I believe through my colleague Matthew Moult some outstanding images of this relationship between the amyloid protein and aluminium. And

Ahmad (57:50.124)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Exley (58:19.236)
know, what’s interesting about so the amyloid protein, which has been implicated as a cause of Alzheimer’s disease, isn’t a cause as far as I’m concerned, and perhaps many others believe now, because in some cases, aged individuals who not had Alzheimer’s disease at all. And you do by you look at brain tissue after they’ve died, you can find lots of amyloid protein. But

Importantly, you don’t find any aluminium.

So in, I mean, that was, that, that was for me, one of the things that we’ve been asked over and over again is, well, look, okay, but what about, you know, what about controls you? I’ve got enough controls for this, enough controls for that. So we went to our, our brain bank people in London and their chief, their top neuropathologist. And I should say, I asked him, look, find me as many brains as you can.

Ahmad (58:53.932)
Okay.

Chris Exley (59:23.894)
in the brain bank of individuals who have neither any neurological and yet died without any neurological symptoms, no diagnosis of any form of neurodegenerative disease. But also when you go back and look at all of the tissues, there is no evidence of any neurodegenerative disease either, none of the classical signs necessarily of Alzheimer’s. And they found me 20 individuals.

ranging in age from about 65 to I think 102, 103. And when we measured the aluminium content of their brains, yes, there’s a little bit, but there’s almost nothing. So people who lived well into their 90s and 100s without any neurodegenerative disease or neurological symptoms had no aluminium in their brain.

So to me, this was enough for me to say that aluminium is a significant contributor to Alzheimer’s disease. And I made the, for some outrageous statement, no aluminium, no Alzheimer’s in the normal lifetime of an individual. Because if you live for long enough, if you live for 120, 130, 140 years, something else will kill your neurons. That’s for sure.

Ahmad (01:00:48.118)
Hmm

Chris Exley (01:00:52.036)
So what we’re talking about is what is essentially an immortal cell line, your neurons being killed way in advance of when they should be by something else. And I believe that something else is aluminium.

Ahmad (01:00:52.908)
Yeah.

Ahmad (01:01:08.974)
Okay. Wow. While we’re just quickly on this paper, I think I just want to talk about something that I think a lot of people aren’t aware of. And for me, it’s the corruption of science and the corruption of the medical literature. Um, I’ve talked about this with my friend, Kim Wichak. We did a podcast about the spider web of influence of big pharma and also how a lot of these medical journals now very esteemed, prestigious medical journals. And, you know, when I was,

Chris Exley (01:01:19.268)
Hmm.

Ahmad (01:01:37.454)
in med school, you know, a long time ago, you know, trying to get a paper published. Even one paper was like this. It was everything, you know, as a paper copy would go into the medical library in the hospital. And if you got even one publication, your career was made. And so I think people need to understand it was a big thing chasing a publication. It meant that you were a name, you were to be taken seriously and you got, you got the big top jobs. Um, and these medical journals, you know, were, you know, very, you,

Batik run, you know, by, you know, society, society of rheumatology or whatever it might be surgery. And, you know, they were led by doctors and scientists and, you know, there was a proud history behind it. Now over the last few decades, we’ve seen all these journals being hoovered up by large publishing companies. Elsevier, Sage, whatever. And they, like any big corporation company, just want to make money.

and they’ve got benefactors, they’ve got donors, they’ve got sponsors, they’ve got advertisements. Suddenly you get all these promotions and advertisements in the journals. Whereas before it was just page after page of scientific papers. And it was paid for by subscription, the doctors who paid for that journal and the hospitals that paid to have it in their hospital libraries. Now you’ve just got adverts and promotions of things. And now something called PubPeer has appeared and how you found that your paper,

Chris Exley (01:03:01.612)
Yeah.

Ahmad (01:03:04.59)
was being commented on, you get letters, you get letters to the editor. So doctor, scientists can write to the editor about a paper and give it an opinion. And then the author gets a chance to reply back. And you’ve got a bit of a troll. You’ve got this troll who trolls all your work. Can you just quickly just talk to me and the listeners about this so that they understand?

how corrupt the system is and how damaging it is. I think you know what I’m talking about, our little friend.

Chris Exley (01:03:38.02)
Well, yeah, I do, of course. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I first of all.

I have been in this field, I was in this field for all of my academic life. And for all of that time, I had to bat off inane criticisms that were clearly coming from industry. All of that time, you know, the aluminium industry was always putting a negative on every single thing that we tried to do. And if they could influence…

publication, if they could influence a grant, that’s what they would do. So there’s never, there’s nothing unusual about it. And the other aspect of it is, since of course, the arrival of the internet, and some people listeners will think that the internet was always there for first 10 years, 10 years or so of my academic life, there was no internet. The arrival of the internet also created a platform.

Ahmad (01:04:38.764)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (01:04:44.164)
for these people that were previously writing little, just little postcards and stuff and sending them off, now they could just write huge things all over internet, different platforms, and just be disparaging, either personal or not, or just simply putting down work. They didn’t have to provide any reasons for it. So that has gone on for me all of the time. And my…

response to that is to not respond. So I have just ignored it. I only respond to science. So yes, if I’ve, if I’ve published a paper and somebody disagrees or wants to in some way add to that paper, then the normal process would be that you contact the editor, you write a letter to the editor.

The editor then decides, usually by using the people who peer reviewed my paper, does this person have a point? If they do have a point, then they send it to, in this case, me and say, you know, Chris, somebody’s made this particular comment about your work. Would you, would you be able to reply to it, please? Because we think, you know, it’s got some validity. And that’s it. That’s exactly how science works. And I’m more than happy to do that. And I’ve done that over many, many years.

Ahmad (01:05:49.622)
Mmm.

Ahmad (01:05:58.86)
Hmm.

Chris Exley (01:06:09.252)
In this instance, what happened was, after the publication of the seminal paper that you’ve highlighted in the Journal of Alzheimer’s disease, linking aluminium with familial Alzheimer’s disease, within days of publication of that paper, an individual using an anonymous name, which is actually turns out to be the name, a Latin name for a plant, put several comments on Pogpia.

here, which is just a trolling device, as far as I’m concerned, they tried to make out that this is some sort of contribution to scientific communication nonsense. A review of pubpierce shows that over 90 % of all of their comments are anonymous. How is that a contribution to anything? I don’t know. But anyway, so 2020, in 2020 January, these couple of comments were left. So how surprised was I?

Ahmad (01:06:49.422)
Hmm.

Ahmad (01:06:59.406)
Exactly.

Chris Exley (01:07:09.348)
that in March or February, I think it was February 2024, four years later, the editor of the Journal of Alzheimer’s Disease, George Perry, the person that I hold in highest esteem, put a note on Pubpia asking these plants, not those plants, to write to him to say why they were upset about the paper four years later.

Ahmad (01:07:40.15)
Wow.

Chris Exley (01:07:40.772)
Why would you do that? And so then one of them, maybe stupidly, revealed himself to me because he obviously, if you’re going to write a letter to the editor, you’ve got to put your name on it and where you’re from and stuff. So the anonymity was lost in that respect. But everything that they wrote in their letter to the editor, they had put on various other…

Ahmad (01:07:57.708)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (01:08:04.194)
social media platforms criticizing our work over a number of years. And it’s just nonsense. And if it had gone to any form of peer review by scientists who had originally reviewed our paper, the editor wouldn’t have published it, but he did. He put it on his Letters to the Editor page online. And again, I don’t know, will I respond? I said, no, I won’t. I’ll only respond by saying, I cannot believe that you’ve done this. You know,

I don’t know what the background is, but I’m pretty confident that what has happened here is that one of the people I admire the most in the field of Alzheimer’s disease and right up in the whole field of science just felt they had to go along with, let’s say a new publisher took over the took over the Journal of Alzheimer’s disease at the same time.

as all of a sudden he telling me on the private email that we’re now asked to make sure we cover all sorts of comments on work. So that’s why I had to do it. So essentially he has bowed to pressure and I find it hard to believe but you know, George will be in his seventies now maybe just feels a bit vulnerable and not sure. But he has bowed to pressure to do this and pressure from who? From publishers.

So yeah, that’s the story of that. And yet you see, the real issue now is that a letter to the editor is considered as a scientific publication because it should be peer reviewed and then commented and then replied to by the original authors of the paper it’s concerned with. This hasn’t happened here and yet it will now be used by this troll, undoubtedly, to spread his misinformation saying, and look, it’s a published paper.

Ahmad (01:09:36.206)
Very sad.

Chris Exley (01:10:00.996)
It’s not just me on the internet on some platform saying what I want to say, writing what I want to write. This is a published paper and that’s what or a published letter and that is what it will be. So you’re contributing to what the old misinformation thing that we’re all told about in that respect. So yeah, that’s what got my really got my gall and you’ve probably read about it on Substack and people want to read the details. It’s there on Substack.

Ahmad (01:10:28.174)
Do you know what? It’s a sad reflection of our times. It’s the death of science, Chris. It really makes me sad. How?

Chris Exley (01:10:32.42)
Yeah, I mean, I write about this, Ahmed, in my book. Yeah, I write about several examples of this also in my book. So there are loads of examples of it and that I have actually been involved with this way.

Ahmad (01:10:39.03)
Mmm.

Ahmad (01:10:46.83)
I’m gonna, don’t worry, I’ll link your book to the show notes and my sub stack and everything, you know, and I’d really encourage everyone to buy a copy. I’ve bought a copy, trust me. I’ll send this picture of it if you don’t believe me, Chris. And one day hopefully you’ll sign a copy for me. So I just wanna quickly talk about some other things if you don’t mind. So basically, there’s just a few more things. So let’s talk about like aluminum, right? I mean, you’ve picked this fight.

Chris Exley (01:10:59.396)
No, I believe you.

Chris Exley (01:11:04.708)
I will be.

Okay.

Ahmad (01:11:14.702)
Right. With the aluminum industry, this absolutely multi -billion dollar industry that we now use aluminum in products left, right and center. It’s not quite as big as the petrochemical industry, but I mean, it’s up there. It’s a big one. It’s a big one. I mean, frying pans, non -stick frying pans. Well, there you go. Non -stick frying pans. Really? Wow. I didn’t know that. So non -stick frying pans. I mean, like that’s made of a…

Chris Exley (01:11:28.354)
No, it’s bigger. Bigger.

It’s bigger than petrochemical.

Chris Exley (01:11:36.748)
Yes.

This is the no –

Ahmad (01:11:42.09)
aluminium, these pots and pans, should we not be using aluminium pots and pans? How do we minimise getting aluminium into our bodies? So you’ve talked about making sure your cosmetics and your anti -perish prints and deodorants, they’re all, they’re none of those have got aluminium in them. What about cooking utensils and stuff like that? I mean, should we not be having aluminium pots and pans?

Chris Exley (01:12:05.796)
Yeah, in short, yeah. I mean, first of all, even for someone like me, who probably understands the subject better than most, it is still not possible for me to completely avoid coming across aluminium in my everyday life. But in terms of, for example, your diet, you just avoid processed foods and drinks.

You know, I would never drink any cola inverted commas. I’d never drink anything in a can. You’d never drink anything that’s long life because those are in aluminium containers. All processed foods have aluminium in them for different reasons, often added for different reasons. Or the vast majority of drugs, you know, some Alzheimer’s disease drugs.

Ahmad (01:12:42.51)
Mm.

Chris Exley (01:13:04.164)
used aluminium to make the colour on the tablet. I mean, this is how ludicrous the industry is. Aricept is an Alzheimer’s disease drug where they’re actually using and whether they continue to do so, I don’t know, because I highlighted this many times. They actually used aluminium, which is really good for colours, doing colours.

Ahmad (01:13:13.998)
Oh my god.

Ahmad (01:13:27.628)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (01:13:30.564)
They used it to create the color of the capsule for the tablet. So, you know, what I say to everybody is now, is that my first paper on aluminium showed that silicon protected against the acute toxicity of aluminium in fish. We guess why? It doesn’t only protect in fish, it protects in humans too. And if you drink

Ahmad (01:13:42.478)
Mm -hmm.

Ahmad (01:13:52.94)
Mmm.

Ahmad (01:13:57.142)
Yeah.

Chris Exley (01:13:58.338)
mineral water, which is rich in silicon, more than 30 milligrams per liter silicon, 30 PPM total silicon, you will excrete aluminium from your body in your urine. So it helps you to remove aluminium from your body. And of course, we’ve done this in clinical trials with people with Alzheimer’s disease, we’ve done it in clinical trials with people with multiple sclerosis with really positive and beneficial effects.

But also we’ve done a great deal of research on just healthy individuals showing the benefits of drinking silicon -rich mineral water. So I drink one every day. I try to drink half a litre to a litre every day. And I just simply do so because I know that I cannot avoid all aluminium in my everyday life. And that that I can’t avoid, I can help to be excreted in my urine by drinking a silicon -rich mineral water.

Ahmad (01:14:29.262)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (01:14:56.164)
And no, to everybody that asks, I have no shares in any company. I have not. I gain nothing by saying this. I gain because I believe and I’ve done the science that shows that silicic acid, soluble form of silicon binds aluminium, forms a hydroxyluminosilicate, which is excreted in the kidney and helps to get aluminium out of the body. So we are the scientists that did that research. It’s our science.

Ahmad (01:14:57.23)
I mean,

Chris Exley (01:15:25.572)
That’s the science I’m probably most proud of. It’s the science that explains why the earth exists, because it’s the same science that means you’ve got silicon, aluminium and oxygen that make up the earth’s crust. So it’s almost like I said to myself all those years ago, all those years ago, I said, well, look, if aluminium is kept out of living things in the earth’s crust, because it’s combined with silicon, the way it’s out again,

Ahmad (01:15:38.062)
Yeah. No, I think.

Chris Exley (01:15:54.018)
What we need to do is recombine it with the silicon, don’t we? And yes, the answer is yes, we do. And it works.

Ahmad (01:18:51.534)
So can I just quickly, before we move on, there’s two more topics I want to talk about. So when you ingest this, you know, aluminium, 70 %…

Chris Exley (01:19:03.076)
Ahmed, can I have a short break?

Ahmad (01:19:07.788)
Yeah.

Yes, I need I need to pee as well. Let’s do it. Let’s do it. I’ll come back and yeah, give me two minutes.

Chris Exley (01:19:12.1)
Two minute. Yeah, two minute.

Chris Exley (00:01.268)
My energy levels are waning fast, so keep me with the good stuff and we’ll try to land up.

Ahmad (00:04.398)
Yeah, I will. I will, I will. I’ve only got two big things to say and then a little one first. So, you know, when you ingest and, you know, absorb this aluminium, inhale it, it goes all over the body. I you’ve got this fascinating picture of the sperm and how there’s aluminium around that. Is part of the aluminium locked inside the body and it’s very difficult to get at? I mean, is that what you found? That it just…

If it isn’t excuted, if it isn’t, you know, removed in your feces, it gets somehow locked in the body tissues.

Chris Exley (00:40.82)
Yeah, so we know that we our bodies definitely accumulate aluminium over time. And there are certain places where this is going to be more obvious. One is an area that you know very well, the bone. So the bone matrix is somewhere, which is for example, phosphate rich.

It’s somewhere where aluminium can sit and often in situations where you have bone fractures on the fracture line, you actually have aluminium sitting on that line. And it could even be, if you imagine the old thing about aging of tree rings and stuff like that, it could also be a period of time when you might have had a high exposure to aluminium and it goes into the bone in certain places and then it gets covered up again and things of this sort.

Ahmad (01:27.18)
Yeah.

Chris Exley (01:37.268)
growth and change and the dynamic processes. But then you’ve also got to look at cells. So one aluminium, because there’s no mechanism either taking aluminium into the cell, you know, I mean, it happens, but there’s no active mechanism or taking aluminium out of the cell. If you have a long lived cell, then the possibility that aluminium remains inside that cell for a long period of time and accumulates is

is much greater. So your neurons, which are very long lived cells, they will accumulate aluminium. Your heart cells are relatively long lived cells. Your macrophages can be quite long lived cells. So there are various cells in the body which have relatively long lives where aluminium is known to be able to accumulate and perhaps accumulate to a toxic threshold.

Ahmad (02:23.47)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (02:34.068)
where they can then bring about toxicity inside the cell. And compare that with your skin cell. So you rub your arm, you’re always exfoliating all the time. And your skin cells are only days, weeks before they get turned over. And so actually losing your skin is a good way of losing aluminium too, because the aluminium will be there, but it won’t have time to really accumulate in that type of cell. So…

Yes, we are seeing its accumulation, particularly in both long -lived cells, but also structures such as bone and probably other connective type tissues as well. Think about phosphate even inside a cell. So inside a cell, let’s just take a neuron, you have an ATP pool, a pool of ATP providing the energy for that neuron.

Ahmad (03:10.156)
Mm.

Ahmad (03:30.764)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (03:30.93)
ATP is a perfect place for aluminium to sit because it’s phosphate rich. You also have citrate pools, citric acid being used, citric acid cycle, etc. Citrate is a perfect place for aluminium to sit. So you have chemical pools where it can sit and you have physical places where it can sit and accumulate. And the question is, does it have time to accumulate to a toxic burden? If it hits a toxic burden,

Ahmad (03:52.694)
Hmm, right.

Chris Exley (04:00.754)
can then kill the cell or it can make the cell dysfunctional or is more likely the case it will induce the cell to cell death, apoptosis, cell suicide. It’s only when you have an acute response to aluminium which you might have in certain circumstances where you get an inflammatory type response.

Ahmad (04:23.598)
Got it, got it, got it. Is there, yes, no, is there such a thing as a safe limit of aluminum?

the body.

Chris Exley (04:33.5)
No, of course not.

Ahmad (04:36.238)
Okay. No, that’s all I want to know. Yes or no? So the next thing is we talk about vaccines. You got into the vaccine. I mean, as if picking the fight with the aluminium industry wasn’t enough. I mean, you’ve clearly got big balls. You thought, right, I’ll take on another fight, you know, another multi -billion, trillion dollar industry. So you came up against the vaccine industry. Now there’s a paper that lists all the vaccines with aluminium in them and

Chris Exley (04:51.188)
Yeah.

Ahmad (05:05.4)
adjuvants. I mean, I know time is precious and you don’t have much time, but I mean, basically it just seems crazy to me. You put this antigen into, into a body to create antibodies. So something foreign into the body. So your body’s defense immune system goes, Oh, that’s not meant to be here. Let’s create antibodies so we can attack it and get rid of it. But apparently in the vaccines, these antigens weren’t creating an inflammatory response. Wasn’t the body was just like going meh, meh.

So you inject aluminium into these people, which is called the adjuvant, and that’s immediately cytotoxic. It kills things. Your body doesn’t like it. It draws an inflammatory response. The military, the defence forces of your body go rushing towards it and they gobble it up in the macrophages or whatever. And some of these aluminium adjuvants are bound to the antigens. When it gets all swallowed up and digested, your body then creates antibodies to the antigen and to the aluminium.

And then they measure the antibodies to the antigen and go see, there’s an antigenic antibody response. This vaccine works. Is that the whole basis of adjuvants, aluminium adjuvants?

Chris Exley (06:16.564)
Yeah, I tried, and I’m sure you know, I tried to explain that in one of my latest sub stacks because I get so many questions on the same line about, you know, how do they really work? And of course, that’s how I came into the subject because the great and the good of vaccinology purported to say how they worked and they were totally wrong. And they hadn’t done the research, they had no understanding of what they were talking about.

They weren’t even using aluminium adjuvants that were used in vaccines in their research to say how they work. They just used to take aluminium off the shelf thinking that all forms of aluminium are the same, which of course, the forms are not the same. The active ingredient is only Al3 +, but the forms are all different and their delivery of Al3 +, is all different. So all aluminium adjuvants are actually different in their own way as well. But…

Yeah, I mean, the best bet that I can make on how does an aluminium adjuvant work is quite simply because it’s toxic at the injection site, vaccine injection site. And as I wrote in my sub -stack recently, the only reason why we use an aluminium adjuvant is you would need to use probably 100 times more antigen to get the same effect without the aluminium adjuvant.

and therefore the vaccine would cost a hundred times more and the profit would be 100 times less. And they don’t care one iota about whether aluminium causes any problems whatsoever because they don’t have to care. There are no regulations with respect to how much aluminium you put in a vaccine, none whatsoever, none in relation to human health. In the same way as aluminium in water, the regulations have nothing to do with human health.

The aluminium adjuvants in vaccines, any regulation has nothing to do with the aluminium being toxic. It’s to do with the size of the antibody titer produced against the antigen. So they just… I mean, yeah, I mean, I’ve had… Obviously, this has come to the fore over the last, well, for me, 10, 12 years in particular.

Ahmad (08:28.686)
is madness.

madness.

Chris Exley (08:44.34)
where I’ve really had to think hard and fast about this. And again, a little bit like working on Alzheimer’s disease. It had taken me many years of real research, publishing research from a brilliant team that I had before I suddenly realized, Chris, you shouldn’t be using aluminium measurements. It’s as simple as that. They are bad for you and they are only present

Ahmad (08:48.78)
Hmm.

Chris Exley (09:13.236)
to save money. So they should not be used anymore because people came at me with that argument 10 years ago and I said, well, hang on a minute. We need, I need to know this for sure. I need to do the research before I can say that. And that’s right. I really, that is my approach. It always has been, but I came to their conclusion eventually and they were absolutely right. Aluminium adjuvant should not be used in vaccines. Even if you…

Ahmad (09:33.166)
Wow.

Chris Exley (09:41.17)
you know if you believe in vaccines and I’m not 100 % sure that I do believe in vaccines but if you 100 % do believe in them then they should be without an aluminium adjuvant.

Ahmad (09:53.294)
Well, I couldn’t agree more with you. I mean, this is a paper. And it says the measurement and full statistical analysis, including Bayesian methods, aluminium content, infant vaccines. And, you know, there’s a lot of vaccines. Now the vaccine schedule in the States, I think it’s like 70, 80 in the UK. It’s not much far off in that Australia is the same. And you know, you’ve got all these vaccines from two months to six months, from six weeks to four weeks. Yeah. And it’s all there. Aluminium, aluminium, aluminium, there’s tons of it.

Chris Exley (09:58.962)
Mmm.

Ahmad (10:21.262)
And we’ve just clarified that there is no safe dose of aluminium. And what I think is incredible is you’ve got this tiny, tiny little baby, this tiny little squishy little baby, you know, with not much mass and you’re injecting a shitload of aluminium into that developing brain. And we know how fast babies go. We know how fast their brains are developing and you’re dumping the shit inside them. I mean, it’s just insane. It’s absolutely insane. Now,

Chris Exley (10:38.644)
Hmm.

Ahmad (10:51.47)
You talked about a potential link.

Chris Exley (10:52.5)
Well, you know, one of the things that upset me the most are when these people like Pollard at Oxford and other vaccinologists who have been lauded and rewarded by government for their efforts in all different ways say, oh, it’s a miniscule amount of aluminium. I mean, it’s a moronic thing to say, absolutely moronic. But no one takes, well, I take them up on it, but who’s listening to me? That’s the big question. But…

Ahmad (11:10.316)
Hmm.

Mmm.

Chris Exley (11:22.836)
This is the problem. I don’t think it’s just ignorance. It’s not just ignorance. This is concerted efforts to downplay any possible toxicity of aluminium. And you and I can, we can summarize very quickly. We can just simply say along the lines that if at some point it is acknowledged that let’s say aluminium has a role in Alzheimer’s disease.

Ahmad (11:25.742)
It is a problem.

Chris Exley (11:52.628)
That would be enough. That would completely and utterly bring stock markets down. It would be a calamity that most governments do not want to accept. So we are dealing with something which is huge, absolutely huge. And that’s why I said to you earlier about the size of industries. Everyone thinks of things like the oil industry being the biggest and they’re not. The aluminium industry and the lobbyists for the aluminium industry dwarf everything else.

Ahmad (11:53.358)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (12:22.868)
And if one of your listeners needs to, next time, just in their own life, you just look around them and suddenly you’ll see aluminium is absolutely everywhere in your everyday life. And if someone then says, well, we’re going to have to take that away. Wow, how are you going to do that? How are you going to have no more, you know, when people get their prescription,

Ahmad (12:23.468)
Yeah, yep. Yeah.

Ahmad (12:47.182)
All right.

Chris Exley (12:51.38)
and they press out the drug from their aluminium, what to call them, these things press, you press them out and your drug is inside. These are all made of aluminium, yeah, these are all made of aluminium, everything you look everywhere is aluminium.

Ahmad (13:02.508)
Dispenser. Dispenser.

Ahmad (13:09.132)
Blister packs, blister packs. You mean blister packs. That’s what you’re talking about. Blister packs. Yeah. So Chris, Chris, very quickly, because I know time’s running out and you’ve given me so much more time than I thought. Very quickly. Look, so we’re talking about this aluminium in the body, in the vaccines. You also did a study where you went, look, okay, the aluminium manufacturers say this is how much aluminium is in the vaccine. Although the MHRA, the EMA, you know, the FDA, none of them actually check and

Chris Exley (13:13.044)
Yes, blister packs, that’s the word I was looking for.

Ahmad (13:38.22)
measured the aluminium themselves to make sure it’s correct. You did a study which showed only 10 % of the vaccines had, you know, only three of the vaccines had within 10 % of what they were saying. Many other vaccines had a lot more aluminium than the manufacturers were saying there was in it. Is that correct?

Chris Exley (13:58.932)
Well, they had more or some of them had less. In other words, what it tells us is, first of all, you’re right. None of the regulatory agencies who are supposed to be protecting us have ever measured the aluminium content of a vaccine. They rely wholly on the industry to provide them with that information. The industry has no idea how much aluminium is in their vaccines within a certain constraint. So if, as they make out that

particular vaccine should have, let’s say, 0 .5 milligrams of aluminium in it. You assume that’s because that produces the correct titer of antibodies to the antigen that the vaccine is being used against, and that their research has shown this. So what does it then mean if we measure, first of all, one example might be it’s not 0 .5 anymore, it’s 0 .85. It’s nearly twice as much. Or

Ahmad (14:43.502)
Mm. Mm.

Ahmad (14:58.03)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (14:58.098)
another instance, it’s point two, it’s less than half. What does it tell us? It tells us that the whole thing is just a lottery of very, very poor manufacturing science. And all the industry cares about is that somehow or other.

that particular vaccine, it might just work or it might not. And that’s what makes me worry. You know, I ask the question sometimes, so how often is it that let’s say large numbers of individuals who’ve received a vaccine with an aluminium adjuvant, how many times do we actually measure? I mean, I’m talking about within the general public, how many times do we then…

Ahmad (15:46.862)
Mm.

Chris Exley (15:51.88)
a week later or two weeks later measure the antibody tighter? Is the answer never? In other words, how do we know that any of these vaccines are doing anything at all other than making money? How do we know? I mean, yes, you’ve got so -called clinical trials, but we all know how the clinical trials can be completely manipulated and have been totally manipulated.

Ahmad (15:56.236)
Hmm

Ahmad (16:06.23)
Yeah.

Ahmad (16:10.478)
Great question.

Chris Exley (16:20.084)
most recently with all the COVID examples. But.

Ahmad (16:21.614)
And it’s never against a true placebo controlled study. It’s always with another vaccine or an adjuvant or whatever. It’s never with just saline.

Chris Exley (16:27.892)
Bye.

Well, certainly, yeah, well, that’s certainly the case with all of the aluminium adjuvanted vaccines. Yeah, they’ve never been they’ve never been tested against a proper placebo.

Ahmad (16:41.582)
I just, I just want to quickly show you like conflicts of interest. You talked about Anthony, no, Andrew Pollard. I mean, I’m not a fan of his. He’s just up the road in Oxford and you know, he was on the JCVI and he’s pushing all these shots. I mean, there’s no conflict of interest there with his line of work, but look at this, right? I want to show you this. So here’s a BMG, right? Letter, rapid response to Chris Exley’s vaccine safety. British are less skeptical.

Chris Exley (16:49.972)
Yeah.

Chris Exley (17:02.004)
Hmm.

Ahmad (17:09.71)
So you go through this and this person’s given this long retired epidemiologist has given some papers. So I took the first paper and I did a PubMed and searched for it. So here we go now. Stop share. Stop share. And I’m going to now show you the next one. So then I found the paper and I thought, okay, right, let’s have a look at this one.

Chris Exley (17:16.948)
Yeah.

Ahmad (17:35.278)
And let’s see if it’s any good. It says number of antigens and early childhood vaccines, neurophysiological outcomes. I thought the paper was actually really crap. Just reading it, I was like, it’s not really well designed. And then when I was scrolling down, I saw another one on time vaccine receipt and the first year dose not adversely affect neuropsychological outcomes. And I was like, okay, let’s have a look at this one. You know, Smith MJ, right? We’ll have a look at that. So I’m going to stop share.

go to that.

And then, so let’s see who Smith MJ is, right? So University of Louisville School of Medicine on time vaccine receipt. And this paper says that if you get your vaccines on time, you’ve got a slightly better development than those who don’t have their vaccines on time or don’t have any vaccines. So it’s like really pushing the vaccines. It’s like saying, you know, should really have vaccines, vaccines are great for you. They’re the best thing since sliced bread. So then I thought.

Chris Exley (18:29.204)
Yeah, be first in the queue. Yeah.

Ahmad (18:36.11)
Yeah, then I thought, let’s check out Michael J. Smith. Who is Michael J. Smith, right? So then I went to Michael J. Smith. Let’s find this guy. And so Michael J. Smith, what does he do? Well, Michael Joseph Smith is professor of pediatrics, chief division of infectious diseases, and member of the Duke Human Vaccine Institute. And then it talks, and then it’s got a list of grants. 2023 to 2028, clinical contributing task, grants, grants, grants, grants, grants.

Pfizer, awarded by Pfizer, 2022 to 2024. And so, and you know, if you think I’m making these things up, it’s all here, you know? So, and there you go, Pfizer C4671026 clinical trial grant awarded by Pfizer, start date 2022 and 2024. What I’m trying to say is, I don’t think most people know that when these papers are published,

what the massive conflicts of interest are. These people, their livelihoods, their reputations, their professions, their professional reputations, their whole raison d ‘etre is justifying vaccines, pushing vaccines, getting funding grants, research grants. Do you ever think they’re gonna publish a paper that says that vaccines are not good for you or that they’re not safe or that we should investigate? Of course they’re not. They’re always gonna be pushing that narrative. But on the flip side,

I could say to you, Chris, you’re researching aluminium, you’re Mr Aluminium. Maybe you just see everything through the aluminium lens and you just think everything’s the fault of aluminium. You know, all these things, all these human diseases, everything, because you’re blinkered because you’re, you know, you’re obsessed about aluminium and you see aluminium and everything. And actually it’s not even an issue. Before you answer that question, what I would say to your defence and I hate to come to your defence, I mean, you’re a man, you can stand up for yourself.

Chris Exley (20:15.316)
Mmm.

Ahmad (20:32.268)
The fact is, aluminium has never been in the human body and in the world as it has been in the last 150 years. It’s now everywhere and all over the place. The water, the air, the plants, the soil. We haven’t even talked about chemtrails and cadmium and aluminium in the water and the rain and all that kind of stuff. But the human body is so complicated and there’s so many different tissues, so many different physiological processes and different types of cells.

So when this aluminium that’s now everywhere and it was never in the world like it is now gets into the body, it can affect any number of processes and any number of cells and tissue types and organs, and then manifest in a variety of different diseases. And that’s me kind of answering that question. But what about my question to you saying that maybe you’ve got a bias and you see things through the aluminium lens. What would you say to that?

Chris Exley (21:29.332)
I say, you know, when I, when I write, as I do now, my sub stack no longer with a research team and a research lab. But I say exactly the same thing. I only write about what I consider to be independent, peer reviewed science. That’s all I do. So my defense.

Ahmad (21:55.566)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (21:57.588)
is my 250 published papers. And if they’re not good, tell me. Go into them. Show me write letters to the editor, show that we are incorrect, show that we are wrong. And I have given my life to one thing, understanding aluminium. And in particular,

Ahmad (22:21.836)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (22:25.6)
towards the latter part in human health. It’s sort of irrelevant to me whether I’m right or wrong in many respects because I have put down a case in the published literature. I continue to do so when I’m asked verbally. I will continue to do so as writing non -reviewed substack articles.

Ahmad (22:41.422)
Mmm.

Ahmad (22:55.214)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (22:55.636)
And if, I will never gain from having done this research. I will not get the accolades that someone who has done what I’ve done should perhaps get in science. I will not be fellow of the Royal Society. I will not get a Nobel Prize for showing that aluminium is almost certainly the most dangerous toxic substance on the earth and to human health.

I don’t even get an awful lot of support from fellow scientists. So I have just made that decision, but I’ve always done it only on science. So you won’t get me telling you, Ahmed, about something that I have not supported using the establishment system of science. And that’s the big difference between perhaps myself and

Ahmad (23:49.582)
I’ve got it.

Chris Exley (23:55.412)
you know, you’ll get some people, they’ll go on a show like yours, and they’ll talk about anything. They’ll talk about anything that anybody asked them. We’ll give an opinion on anything about… I’ve got one area of expertise where I’m 100 % confident myself and what we have already shown. And if I’m wrong, it’s up to other people to prove it. It’s when we… you know, the autism paper, aluminium in brain tissue in autism.

Ahmad (24:05.612)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (24:25.46)
It all of a sudden I became an anti -vaxxer. Even my university decided I was an anti -vaxxer and the university couldn’t have an anti -vaxxer there because they had all these connections with the vaccine industry, AstraZeneca, Bill Gates and other vaccine companies all putting money into the university. So they had to get rid, you know, that they used the anti -vax narrative to get rid of me. But, you know,

If I am so wrong, then where that was 2017, that’s seven years ago. Why hasn’t somebody gone, measured the aluminium content in autism brain tissue and shown it to be negligible? Simple thing to do for some people with with huge amounts of research money could do it, you know, in a New York second, as someone would say.

Ahmad (25:14.124)
Yeah.

Chris Exley (25:25.428)
It’s not difficult to do. Why they haven’t done it? Because they know that what we have done is 100 % right. And the same is without Alzheimer’s disease. We do not make mistakes.

Ahmad (25:37.39)
That’s what I was going to ask you. No, I get that. I know that. But I mean, this is one of the last questions I had was what the hell did Keele University do? Like, is it literally that they just buckled to the pressure and said, you need to go? Sorry, you’re not going to have any funding. We don’t want you anymore. Pack your bags.

Chris Exley (25:52.308)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, people want to read about this in detail. It’s on my website under a tab called history and there’s a long article which I, you know, when I left the university, I did not agree to any non -disclosure agreements or anything of this sort. I put down every single bit of information that I have there for anyone who wants to use. And I’m actually really quite surprised that some investigative journalists didn’t use it.

to make a massive story because yes, my vice chancellor lied to the people who run his university about me, wrote lies, made lies, said lies so that they could have me. Well, they weren’t able to remove me per se. What they were able to do was to make sure I would never get any more funding.

So I couldn’t do the research, which was my raison d ‘etre for being there. So I resigned. At the end of the day, I resigned. Because they said that I had tenure. They weren’t able to actually sack me, because I hadn’t done anything wrong, inverted commas. In fact, I was by far the most successful scientist at Keele University, almost in the history of Keele University.

Ahmad (27:11.308)
Mmm.

Chris Exley (27:18.932)
You know, if they really if they’d been clever, they would have been the opposite, they would have been supporting me. But in truth, they did for 20 years. Certainly in the last five or six years or so that this happened. And that’s really when you saw the massive interest and the investment coming from Bill Gates, from AstraZeneca, from the name of the company now, but one of the high street pharmaceutical companies in the United Kingdom, huge amounts of investment came in.

And it was clear that somebody somewhere told the vice chancellor, you need to deal with this person. They colluded with the Guardian newspaper to create a story. I mean, there’s clear collusion going on between Keele, vice chancellor, senior management and the newspaper to make a story up about me. Yeah. And, uh, you know, the,

Ahmad (28:09.102)
Well, I mean, it’s all about shaming you, discrediting you, destroying your credibility, just basically destroy everything about you. I mean, there’s some parallels with me. I mean, I gave up my medical license voluntarily because just like you, if you’re a professor and you’ve got no grants and no money, how can you conduct any research? And what kind of surgeon am I who doesn’t have an operating theater to work out of? Who doesn’t have a hospital to work out of? Who doesn’t have any patients?

Chris Exley (28:14.388)
Hmm.

Chris Exley (28:27.346)
Hmm.

Chris Exley (28:36.468)
Yeah.

Ahmad (28:38.702)
And then I’ve just got a license that I’m paying money for so that they can investigate me and have a noose around my neck all the time. So I was like, here you go. Um, I relinquish it. I don’t need this anymore. Get lost. It’s very sad.

Chris Exley (28:45.908)
Yeah, there are.

There are definite parallels there. It’s obviously one of the reasons why I’m talking to you. Sorry?

Ahmad (28:56.878)
So you need to tell me what your website address is.

Ahmad (29:02.574)
Thank you, Chris. I respect that. I said, what’s your website address again? Just so that I can tell everybody about it.

Chris Exley (29:10.388)
I think we’re just called all one word aluminium research group.

Ahmad (29:11.086)
your website address.

Chris Exley (29:20.98)
Let me just check.

Ahmad (29:23.822)
And is that .co .uk?

Chris Exley (29:27.924)
So yeah, aluminiumresearchgroup .com.

or one or lowercase or one word aluminium research group .com.

Ahmad (29:39.15)
All right, okay, here we go. Right. I’ll put it up. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Found it. Cause the thing is, things like Google and everything, they’ll find it, make it very difficult to find this kind of stuff. So here we go. There you go. All right. Fantastic.

Chris Exley (29:53.776)
Google’s amazing. I mean good Google. Yeah, Google has been censoring me for a number of years. It’s incredible

Ahmad (30:01.515)
Okay, so I want people to look up your website, aluminiumresearchgroup .com. I want people to find your sub stack. Can you tell everyone where they can find your sub stack?

Chris Exley (30:16.116)
On Substack? I don’t know. Isn’t that how you find me? I don’t know. Doctor’s newsletter.

Ahmad (30:18.318)
Yep. It’s, it’s, it’s, yep. Dr. Christopher, I think Christopher Exley. Yeah. And it’s Dr. Christopher Exley. You have, you can’t use Chris Exley. It won’t show up. And also definitely find your book.

Chris Exley (30:27.794)
Yeah.

Chris Exley (30:32.466)
And it’s, and it is.

Yeah.

Ahmad (30:36.244)
Imagine you are an aluminium atom. Right, Chris.

Chris Exley (30:40.676)
Except for it’s an American spelling because it’s American publishers

Ahmad (30:44.942)
I know. Right, I’ve got one last question. In your hundreds, you’ve lived a long, healthy, happy life. You’re surrounded by your family, your loved ones. Before you pass on and meet your maker, what piece of advice, what pearls of wisdom would you pass on?

Chris Exley (31:04.924)
Um…

Very simple, really. If at all possible, be yourself.

And to do that, of course, you have to know yourself. And I think that’s what most people find most difficult, knowing themselves.

Chris Exley (31:27.284)
I know myself. That’s why I can talk to you about this with, you know, confidence. But I know myself. I know who I am. I know what I represent. I’m not sure that that’s something that people learn easily.

Ahmad (31:41.742)
Mm.

Ahmad (31:46.254)
Hmm.

Chris Exley (31:53.876)
they would rather have somebody else tell them who or what they are.

Ahmad (32:02.318)
Yeah, that’s very powerful. I think you’re right. Oh man, I just suddenly remembered one last thing I forgot to mention. You know with the autism thing and they talk about autistic spectrum. Chris, I don’t know. I just don’t like it all being lumped in together. I think there’s definitely some kind of familial genetic, very rare autism, like Fragile X or something like that. I think one’s epigenetics and environmental. And then one I think is the vaccines and that, you know, aluminium. Would you agree with that?

You know, it’s a mixed bag and they kind of lump it all together. Autism. But you know, there’s a kind of autism that is vaccine injury, I think.

Chris Exley (32:47.092)
I have already gone out on a limb on this because nothing upsets me more, I think, than to see successful people telling me they’ve got autism. That’s just nonsense. Autism, as I understand it, is a brain disease. It produces such damage.

Ahmad (32:57.323)
Mmm.

Ahmad (33:00.982)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Chris Exley (33:17.364)
that an individual may never be that individual or they may take a long time before they can even be recognized as an individual. It is severe brain damage. And…

Ahmad (33:32.622)
Hmm.

Chris Exley (33:35.252)
I believe that brain damage is caused by something from the environment. And I would not rule out aluminium in vaccines as being a cause, if not decourse.

Ahmad (33:51.534)
Hmm. Hmm.

Chris Exley (33:54.644)
And everything else, Rain Man, for example, and people, you know, who have all these incredible skills. This is some, this is just brain wiring. You are different. You are different. But when you have brain damage, my previous neighbor, their child had autism. He was severely brain damaged. This, you know, this is a major difference for me.

Ahmad (34:09.164)
Hmm.

Chris Exley (34:24.756)
And I think we have to be very careful about lumping, as you suggest, everything into the same boat. It’s just not the case. So Chris Packer does not have autism, everybody. The famous television biologist.

Ahmad (34:33.196)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ahmad (34:40.462)
Yeah, no, no, this is what I mean.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I just want to, I just want to make exactly. I mean, but the thing is everybody wants a label now. Everybody’s special by having a label. It’s all about your identity. It’s not about, it’s not about your, you know, your work, your ethics, you know, your achievements. It’s not about any of that. It’s not about your acts and deeds. It’s about your identity and everybody wants a label now, you know, I’ve even got grownups saying, Oh, you know, I’ve got ADHD. I’ve, I’ve got autism. I was never diagnosed. And you know,

Chris Exley (34:45.62)
It’s nonsense. He’s just different.

Chris Exley (34:55.668)
Yeah.

Ahmad (35:15.374)
And there’s people just saying, oh, autism is very common. It’s just never been diagnosed before. It’s just the way you’re born. And yeah, it’s just a nine, shit show. Anyway, last thing I want to mention is the John Maddox Prize, everyone. So this is Nature Awards, the John Maddox Prize, and the applications are open for 2024. And it’s the full title is the John Maddox Prize, Standing Up for Science 2024. And we’ve got until the 20th of May.

to do an application. I would encourage everyone to apply and list our lovely Chris Exley as someone who should be a recipient of this award. Because if you look at it, what does it say? The John Maddox Prize recognizes researchers who stand up and speak out for science and evidence -based policy, advancing public discussion around difficult topics despite…

challenges or hostility and successfully making a change in public discourse or policy. I mean, if that doesn’t fracking qualify you, my friend, I don’t know who does, right? And I’ll put a link to this. I’ll put, yeah, it was made for you. I’ll put a link of this in the show notes in the sub stack as well. Everyone, please, two things you’re going to do at the end of this show. You’re going to subscribe to my sub stack. Three things. You’re going to subscribe to my sub stack and support my show. You’re going to subscribe to…

Chris Exley (36:23.092)
Man, it’s made for me.

Ahmad (36:41.486)
Chris Exley, Substack, and you’re gonna do an application so that he wins this prize. And we stick a finger in the eye of big science, big agra, big pharma, big food, big vaccine, big aluminum, big government, big all of these bastards out there. Chris, last words over to you and thank you so much.

Chris Exley (37:01.362)
Alright mate.

Yeah, well thank you very much. It was good to talk. You’ve definitely worn me out. I’ll need to go and lie down now. Okay mate.