#126 – Nigel Watson On Austrian Economics

Nigel is a former economics teacher and now runs his own YouTube channel discussing economics, christianity and philosophy.

The conversation covers a broad spectrum, critiquing economic theories like Keynesian economics and questioning the impact of big government on trust and health. It explores the allure of authoritarianism, critiques free-market conservatism, and delves into issues like corruption, Austrian economics, and personal freedom. Themes of socialism, community support, and human connection are discussed, highlighting the hypocrisy of some socialist ideals.

The second half touches on topics like the role of government in fostering fear, the importance of reading primary documents, personal journeys of faith, and the pursuit of happiness in the freedom movement. The normalization of criminality, and the significance of delayed gratification, fasting, and safeguarding finances and freedom. Issues related to education, career choices, and personal integrity are covered, examining changes in student loans, alternative career paths, and the importance of questioning authority and maintaining truth and integrity in relationships and society.

I hope you enjoy it!

Ahmad (00:01.205)
Watson. Right. Good morning, Nigel. Yeah. What I was saying was I’m not used to you without your hat on, walking in the snow, chatting. This is really weird seeing you in your son’s bedroom.

Nigel Watson (00:02.102)
Yep. Morning.

Nigel Watson (00:10.039)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I never used to wear a hat when I lived in England. Basically in the summertime, the sun’s normally out, blue sky, sun’s often a little bit lower in the sky, so you need a cap on, otherwise you just get zapped. And then in the wintertime, obviously, you need a beanie on or something like that. If it’s…

It’s been pretty cold here actually. It’s like minus six today, so you’ve got to wear something on your head.

Ahmad (00:41.465)
Yeah, definitely someone like me who’s got no hair. You’ve at least got a good head of hair. So you got some.

Nigel Watson (00:45.318)
No, no, honestly, you’ve got this is yeah, you’ve got to there’s a guy who? Um, he’s just moved to About an hour’s drive away from where I am. He’s a he’s a brit and he’s married to i’m not sure where his girlfriend wife is from but You need some local knowledge here really because if you if you Go about your business as though you’re in england, you know, you’re just gonna get just gonna get wiped out here

Ahmad (01:16.005)
Yeah, I mean you’re at, so you’re out in Finland. Everybody should know that you’re out in Finland, but you’re originally from the UK. We’re not gonna go into why you left. I mean, that’s a long story. But listen, your background, yeah.

Nigel Watson (01:16.15)
And that includes clothes.

Nigel Watson (01:21.982)
Yeah. Oh, so have we actually started?

Alright, okay cool.

Ahmad (01:35.39)
It’s what I said when I said I’m pressing the record button. You’re so funny. Anyway, listen, tell me about your background because you’ve got background in Austrian economics and your YouTube videos are very informative and entertaining because you just say it. You just have these little wee monologues and you just let it out, get it off your chest. And I find them really entertaining. It’s raw.

Nigel Watson (01:39.948)

Nigel Watson (01:53.966)
Okay, thanks.

Nigel Watson (01:59.095)

Ahmad (02:02.653)
It’s honest. It’s good, man. It’s very good.

Nigel Watson (02:02.722)

Hmm. Yeah, well, my background is that I’m just an ordinary pleb from Rochdale who studied economics at university. And my interest in Austrian economics just comes from my own reading because Austrian economics is certainly not taught as part of A-level economics, which is a minority subject anyway, and it’s not really touched upon at undergraduate level. So

To understand Austrian economics you just have to do the reading yourself. So the reading really is Mises, Hayek, Rothbard, those three really I would say.

Ahmad (02:49.885)
Just explain.

Nigel Watson (02:50.525)
So that’s basically what.

Ahmad (02:52.745)
Just explain to people like me, very simple people, and can you bring your mic closer to your mouth, by the way? If you can just explain, like, how does Austrian economics differ from any other form of economics? And normally, if there are like two different, if there’s one standard, there’s normally an alternative. And would that be Keynesian economics? I mean, so what are we talking about? And so what are the main, Keynesian, that’s it.

Nigel Watson (02:59.003)

Nigel Watson (03:13.985)

Nigel Watson (03:17.186)
Keynesian, yeah. Yes, yeah, so Keynesian, yeah, so Keynesian economics is what everyone’s taught. It’s what everyone assumes economics is because they’re not taught anything else. But Keynesian macroeconomics is like the study of the economy and aggregation. So what Keynesians believe in a nutshell is that the level of aggregate demand in the economy determines the level of economic activity, the level of output, the level of employment.

Austrian economics, just completely different paradigm. What they would say is that the level of output and employment is determined by supply side factors in the economy, like the number of entrepreneurs that we have, incentives to work, the rate of technological advancement. So that’s part of it. I would say for me, that’s one of the most important.

things but there are many other aspects that we can talk about because I my belief from teaching

Nigel Watson (00:00.478)
Yeah, if you were to talk to me about stuff to do with the ankle joint or something, I really wouldn’t know much about that at all.

Ahmad (00:07.941)
Yeah, I’ll give an example, right? We’re talking about jargon, and I just stopped you for a second to center you in the video and fix your mic. And I was saying, can you not use jargon? But you’re right, you just said ankle joint. I could say in a medical term, yeah, the talocrural joint. And you’d be like, what? That’s actually another name for the ankle joint. And I can actually talk to my patients in total gobbledygook. And it makes complete sense to me. And my patient’s like, what?

Nigel Watson (00:15.116)

Nigel Watson (00:27.268)

Nigel Watson (00:33.963)

Ahmad (00:35.897)
And they’re not stupid, it’s just a different jargon. And what I find with a lot of experts and from any discipline like yourself, is that you get used to speaking your jargon and you take for granted that everyone else understands what you’re talking about. Like, so when you were saying, you know, Keynesian is aggregate output, I was like, what the, what aggregate? Aggregate of what? Let’s do it again.

Nigel Watson (00:37.058)

Nigel Watson (00:43.482)

Nigel Watson (00:47.956)

Yeah, yeah.

Nigel Watson (00:55.026)
Yeah, let’s do it again. Let’s do it again. Alright, so, um, would we be okay to talk about the total number of people employed in the country? And the more people that are employed, the fewer people that would be unemployed. And generally speaking, most people would say it’s a good thing when there are more people employed and there are fewer people unemployed. Yeah, the other thing that

Ahmad (01:22.041)

Nigel Watson (01:24.318)
that you would say is a goal in economics is maximizing the amounts of stuff that people have to consume, be that ankle surgery operations, or be that cars, or be that houses with central heating. So economists, they have this, I was gonna say metric, but I’m not gonna use the word metric. Measurement.

called GDP, which is the total value of all goods and services produced within the economy in a year. And what Keynesians believe, Keynesian comes from the founder of Keynesian economics, John Maynard Keynes, 1930s. What they believe is.

this level of economic activities, it’s only determined by one variable. And that variable is the total amount of spending in the economy. And what they say is that if there’s unemployment or there’s, there’s not enough being produced, there’s some spare capacity in the economy. The economy is not producing as much as it could. Then the solution to that is that the government

or the central bank, they inject spending power into the economy. And that can be done in two ways. It can be done by the government injecting money, and they do that by spending more than they collect in tax. And that’s called a fiscal deficit. The other way is the central bank cuts interest rates. So that discourages saving.

and it encourages borrowing. So you can see how that would increase spending. And what they believe is the more spending you can chuck into the economy, the better things will be. And that’s the essence of Keynesianism.

Ahmad (03:26.361)

Ahmad (03:38.326)
Well, can I be honest with you, as a lay person, I find that…

Nigel Watson (03:39.402)
What’s the, yeah, go on.

Nigel Watson (03:43.932)
This sounds bloody boring. No does it? No.

Ahmad (03:46.969)
No, no, no. As a lay person, as a medic, I actually kind of thought that’s what it meant already. And it never made sense to me. It never made sense to me. Like I never really got GDP because it’s like, oh, how much is actually turning over? It doesn’t look at efficiency. It doesn’t look at productivity. It doesn’t look at the quality of that work. It’s just like, oh, we’ve got a hundred people working.

Nigel Watson (03:56.809)


Nigel Watson (04:03.276)

Nigel Watson (04:09.482)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.


Ahmad (04:16.429)
And it’s like, great, maybe you could do that work by one person. Sorry.

Nigel Watson (04:17.454)
Mm-hmm. Well, it also does a…

Nigel Watson (04:23.69)
Yeah, it doesn’t also consider what is actually being produced and whether it is of value to the general population. But there’s loads of things wrong with Keynesianism.

Ahmad (04:28.473)

Ahmad (04:34.37)
I was just-

I was just about to say that. I was going to say like that analogy of a hundred people working. I was like, imagine you got a hundred people digging a hole. Like, oh, they’re all working. They’re digging a hole. And it’s like, yeah, but we don’t need that hole. It’s like…

Nigel Watson (04:44.458)
Yeah, oh yeah, or producing revolutionary never tried before messenger RNA injections. You can maximize and then GDP will be boosted again with all the remedial healthcare that’s needed to fix the damage. GDP will go up.

Ahmad (04:54.909)

Ahmad (05:06.686)
Exactly. Or you get mass migration and you have a lot of people coming into the country and you boost GDP because there’s more people buying and selling. But it, to me, is such a crude measurement. The whole GDP business, it’s like, it doesn’t make sense. And it’s just like, oh, we need the GDP to go up every year by 2.5%. And if it’s not, we’ve got a really bad economy. And it’s like, why are we even, why are we even looking at it like that? It’s such a simple, simplistic.

Nigel Watson (05:13.89)

Nigel Watson (05:20.578)

Nigel Watson (05:25.566)

Nigel Watson (05:29.326)
Thank you.

Ahmad (05:34.461)
flawed way. But then I thought, but I’m just a, I’m just a, I’m just a stupid, yeah, I was just, I was like, I’m just a stupid doctor. Surely the clever people have.

Nigel Watson (05:35.99)
But these are the problems.

Nigel Watson (05:41.63)
no you’re not stupid you’re not stupid it’s just people who’ve done the reading and have studied it but or are interested in it to do the reading but what i would say is that there are far more important things to talk about with regard to Keynesian economics that’s wrong about it so i can do that if you want just a very quick one so one problem for example is you’ll see this around you

Ahmad (05:45.852)

Ahmad (06:01.841)
Go for it. Yeah, I love that. Yeah.

Nigel Watson (06:10.538)
So if you chuck more spending power into the British economy, maybe you increase welfare benefits, maybe you cut taxes, maybe you cut interest rates. What will people do? They’ll go to B&Q, they’ll go to various shops in the UK that sell mostly imports. I remember going to Tesco once about 10, 15 years ago.

of trying to buy a toaster and I would like to have bought one that was made in Europe. You know I knew there wasn’t going to be one made in Britain but every single one was made in China so I don’t really like authoritarian regimes so I was trying to avoid that if possible but the point that I’m trying to make is if you took more spending power into the economy

and all it does is suck in more imports, then the only jobs that you’re gonna create are jobs abroad in a country that’s in the case of China, probably doesn’t have our best interests at heart. So that’s one problem. The other problem is, and we’re gonna go like super basic here, is that an economy does two things, or it should do two things. There’s production and there’s consumption.

So a functioning economy should produce things of value and there should be people purchasing those things. That’s what I would say. And what we’ve had over the last quarter of a century is a situation where the UK is consuming but there’s no production. So it’s a weird type of economic activity. I used to say this to the students, it’s real economic activity is like, you know.

supply and demand and what we have in Britain is the sound of one-handed clapping all demand no supply because we import most of the stuff that we consume so Austrian economics recognizes that it recognizes that actually if you just chuck more demand into the economy it’s likely

Ahmad (08:12.218)

Nigel Watson (08:34.818)
without producing, where are you getting the money from? And the answer is debt. You know, on an individual level, if you consume more than you’re producing, more than you’re earning, it implies that you’re either selling off assets, things of value that you own. So you can see this again in Britain, a number of famous British companies, even Premier League football clubs, they’re all foreign owned. And we’ve had to do that.

Ahmad (08:41.317)

Ahmad (09:02.673)

Nigel Watson (09:05.398)
because we’ve been living beyond our means for way too long. We’ve been consuming way more than we’ve been producing. So sell off assets, take on debt. And that’s the story really. Do you want me to talk a bit more, some other aspects of Austrian economics? Or do you want to come back on anything I’ve just said?

Ahmad (09:20.134)
You know what?

Ahmad (09:23.897)
Yeah, just before you… Yeah, no, just coming back on what you said. I mean, am I right in thinking Austrian economics predates this Keynesian economics? And it sounds like it’s based on sound fiscal policies. And actually, the way the Keynesian economics fits in, I always think it justifies the central bankers. It’s all about printing more money and then debting…

Nigel Watson (09:37.814)

Nigel Watson (09:50.63)
Oh big time big time big time

Ahmad (09:53.505)
and debting nations and individuals. It seems like they’ve done it backwards, right? They’ve said, how can we get countries in debt? How can we get people in debt? Hey, let’s use this economic principle. That’s what I’m thinking.

Nigel Watson (10:05.886)
Yeah. Almond, it’s I think it’s quite simple. It’s a it’s like a fig leaf for, you know, support the big government. Keynesianism is big government. The market doesn’t work properly. So what we need instead is big government. The government making the three big questions, answering the three big questions in economics, which is like what to produce.

Ahmad (10:16.527)

Nigel Watson (10:33.382)
more and more now we’re moving towards the big government model where the state decides what we will and what we won’t be producing using our scarce resources to produce methods of production you know austrian economists say that the free market should be deciding those decisions uh… and then for whom which people in society are going to get the chance to consume which aren’t

in a free market that’s all based on the extent to which you’ve served your fellow man. So if you’ve produced a lot of things of value that other people have voluntarily, their own free will, chosen to buy, then that’s how you earn money. And the more money you earn, the more you can buy goods and services in the economy. Which basically means, if you cut to the chase there, it means service. Like to consume…

share of other somebody else’s output you need to produce something of value in return and that exchange is voluntary Whereas what we have today is Well, you know, you know yourself. I know it’s compulsion isn’t it when the state? Wants you to interact with it. It’s not done on a voluntary basis I used to say to the students, you know, this was that um Before I left

I was paying over £2,000 a year in council tax to the Waverley near Guildford. All I could see them doing was they had some refuse collection which didn’t really, it was every two weeks and they’d leave half the rubbish on the driveway. And I couldn’t, sometimes they would repair some roads sometimes but then they’d be potholes. So look, from my point of view.

my 2,000 pounds was worth more to me than the services that Waverly Council supplied to me. So if it had been up to me, I would have withdrawn from that exchange. I’d have said to them, look, I’m really sorry. Please don’t take offense. But I believe I can spend this 2,000 pounds myself better than you can on my behalf. So I’m gonna withdraw from this exchange. What would happen if that…

Nigel Watson (12:57.961)
if I tried to do that.

Ahmad (13:01.053)
The bailiff would come round, the government, the police, whatever.

Nigel Watson (13:01.986)
Come on, Ahmed. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so, okay. So what would happen next? Suppose I just carried on refusing to pay. What are they gonna do to me? Suppose I refuse to leave my house. And suppose I refuse to leave my house.

Ahmad (13:15.228)
I mean, I don’t know, Bayless come around.

Ahmad (13:22.885)
I don’t know. Nothing.

Nigel Watson (13:23.746)
what they’re going to do to me nope they’re not going to do nothing to me eventually what they’re going to do to me

Ahmad (13:28.762)

Lock you up, take you to jail.

Nigel Watson (13:32.618)
Some blokes dressed in black with big sticks and tasers is going to use violence against me.

Ahmad (13:38.582)

Nigel Watson (13:40.138)
and they’re gonna take me away, lock me up somewhere against my will, yeah, and hold me to ransom until I pay. So that all exchange between individuals and the state is coerced, it’s not based on free will. If you feel exploited by the state, you can’t withdraw from that exchange because the-

Ahmad (13:45.177)
Put your children into childcare.


Ahmad (13:54.442)

Nigel Watson (14:08.174)
the state has a monopoly on legalized violence. On the other hand, if you take the free market, I used to do an example with some students, the lower, I managed to wangle doing some economic awareness. It was like one lesson, it was like six lessons a year, basically. So it wasn’t much, but one of the things that I used to try to teach them was this point about free will. That in the private sector,

Ahmad (14:11.791)

Nigel Watson (14:38.534)
exchange is voluntary and therefore for it to take place both sides must benefit because if one side stopped benefiting they would withdraw from the exchange so i’ll give you an example my son used to work for an inefficient chip shop and um he wasn’t paid he wasn’t paid that much and i’m sure and i can’t remember exactly whether this was a student or a member of staff but the old uh exploited word

Ahmad (14:41.821)

Ahmad (14:56.186)

Nigel Watson (15:08.354)
popped up, oh he’s being exploited. How do you work that out? No one’s forcing him to go there. Like the shop, the fish and chip shop is happy hiring him because from their point of view, his labor is worth more to them than the wages that they’re paying to him. And then obviously vice versa, my son.

Ahmad (15:14.237)


Nigel Watson (15:36.074)
carried on working for them until we left to come to Finland because from his perspective the wages that they were paying to him was worth more to him than the time that he was spending in the fish and chip shop. So rather than any exploitation going on actually both sides were benefiting from the exchange. This is another crucial point this is enough exactly win-win.

Ahmad (15:52.924)

Ahmad (15:59.761)

Nigel Watson (16:04.278)
And this is another crucial aspect of Austrian economics, is that exchange in the free market, forgive me here, right, will always add to economic welfare. What I mean by that, it will always add to society’s wellbeing, because if it didn’t, and one party felt exploited, they would withdraw from the exchange. Give you one more example that used to do with the students.

Ahmad (16:29.369)
Mate. Yeah.

Nigel Watson (16:32.394)
I used to go to the garage near the school and used to buy a big block of Aero Mint chocolate. And it used to cost me a pound. I bet it doesn’t cost the pound now. But, and this is only, as I say, like four or five years ago. So I used to, I pay with a five pound note, so I made sure I got a pound change. So I would go back, I’d start talking to, and then I would ask for two volunteers. I’d say, is there anybody in this room?

doesn’t like chocolate and of course it’d always be an odd one you know like somebody’s sporty or wanting to do a bit of virtue signaling about you know how healthy they were and stuff oh i don’t eat chocolate so i said i’ll come to the front there and then i said is there anyone in the room that likes chocolate and somebody of course you’ve been loads of girls with one so i picked one so i would give the pound to the person

that let me get this right now to the person that liked chocolate and will give the chocolate bar to the person that didn’t like chocolate and what I would say to the girls is right what can you do that will improve again I probably might have said welfare what could you do that would make both of you happier and of course they would just

Nigel Watson (18:01.738)
Another tenant of Austrian economics is like what they call subjective value. So when something subjective, it’s a matter of opinion and differences in subjective value is, is what drives exchange between people. And, and, you know, obviously you need special specialization like you specialize that being an ankle foot and ankle surgeon.

Ahmad (18:18.329)

Ahmad (18:27.701)
Used to.

Nigel Watson (18:28.902)
I specialized at being a teacher and a writer until, again, I’m not gonna swear, big government basically stomped its jackboot over both of us. In a free market, we would be still doing what we love and people would still be exercising their free will to choose to buy our services or not. And what we’re moving to is a system of tyranny.

Ahmad (18:42.79)

Ahmad (18:46.822)

Ahmad (18:58.557)

Nigel Watson (18:59.422)
Right, I know you don’t like monologues, so come back at me with some questions.

Ahmad (19:05.407)
No, that was great. That was really, really good. I mean, the thing is, some of my listeners might have been thinking, what have I got? A guy like you talking about economics on my show. But like I keep telling everybody, yeah, it’s important, right? Everything’s linked.

Nigel Watson (19:16.054)
because it’s important. It’s important. Like this is what’s gone wrong. This is what’s gone wrong. There’s way too many people who support immorality. And that immorality is kind of entrenched in the big government model. So another classic one, I’m still teaching now, even though I’m doing my YouTube.

I’m still teaching people about economics. So I get people like saying, oh, Klaus Schwab, World Economic Forum, it’s all really bad. And basically what we need, the solution is socialism, or the solution is just a new group of politicians who are gonna operate the big government model more effectively. Like, they’re not gonna exploit us. You know, these people, they’re mad.

Ahmad (20:11.438)
Oh god.

Nigel Watson (20:14.098)
It’s like asking a lion not to eat a wildebeest. It’s just the type of person that’s attracted into politics is the type of person that you’d least want in that job.

Ahmad (20:14.278)

Ahmad (20:27.149)
100%. Right. So basically I’ve got a few things to say. A few things. Hold it. Hold it. So basically Ed Griffin said exactly what you just said there. He goes, never trust a politician. They’re the ultimate con men. They’re there because they can con on the biggest scale possible. They’re just criminals. It’s legalized criminality.

Nigel Watson (20:29.986)
But just… Yeah, go, go. Yeah.

Nigel Watson (20:36.902)
Okay. Yeah.

Nigel Watson (20:45.162)
Yeah, well, I’ll paraphrase you. So Mises, great Mises quote I used to have up on my classroom wall. I have loads of great quotes up. And I know that as soon as I like basically left.

And we’re all like, ripped down by sympathy, you know, some…

Ahmad (21:08.625)
some woke blue haired person.

Nigel Watson (21:09.822)
Anyway, Mises quote, it goes like this. Those who are unfit to serve their fellow citizens serve as in the free market. You know, you choose whether you want to buy their product. Those who are unfit to serve their fellow citizens seek to rule over them. So what it’s basically saying is the type of person

Ahmad (21:31.151)

Ahmad (21:34.362)

Nigel Watson (21:38.574)
that’s attracted into politics is lazy, no entrepreneurial energy, incapable of producing things of value that other people might have their own free will want to buy. And they seek to earn, in the loosest term, an income through looting by using the power of the state. You know, Keir Starmer.

Tony Blair, Boris Johnson, these people are all looters. And this is why the big government model, go on, sorry.

Ahmad (22:07.617)

Ahmad (22:13.442)
Yeah. Do you know what?

Ahmad (22:17.773)
I was saying, you know what’s worse than a monologue? Having a guest who isn’t very good at talking or isn’t very articulate, and I have to tease everything out of them. So you’re doing great, my friend. These are gems, well done. You’re doing really well. But I need to keep saying something because I’m gonna forget otherwise. I used to think of that Keynesian model with labor and socialist policies. And I thought, you know, the conservative party was more

Nigel Watson (22:27.178)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Keep those, keep those value.

Nigel Watson (22:43.925)

Ahmad (22:47.001)
free market, et cetera. But looking back, I realized it’s all BS. If you look at, for example, COVID and all the quantitative easing that happened before that, 2008 financial crisis and quantitative easing, and then COVID and furlough and all, I mean, conservatives were like really pumping out the cash, pumping out the debt. Free market went out the fricking window. And it’s like, I’ve just thought…

Nigel Watson (22:49.554)

Nigel Watson (22:52.99)
No, yeah it was yeah. Yeah.

Nigel Watson (22:59.734)


Nigel Watson (23:11.606)
Well, that’s when I left. That was, you know, I could just see it. You could just see this move towards outright authoritarianism in the UK and also economic insanity.

Ahmad (23:23.289)
Yeah, I think up until then, there was this… Yeah, I think up until that, there was this pretense. There was this pretense that, you know what? The conservatives are all about, you know, fiscal prudence and being careful and, you know, but it was never there. It was just, it was an illusion. It was an illusion.

Nigel Watson (23:40.586)
Right, let me just ask you a question, right? Yeah, exactly, let me ask you, exactly. So let me ask you a question. During so-called austerity under George Osborne and Dave Cameron, guess what happened to government spending?

Ahmad (23:48.846)

Ahmad (23:55.385)

Ahmad (23:59.857)
The money supply increased, the debt went up and they pumped and…

Nigel Watson (24:02.862)
It government spending increased massively guess what happened to the national debt The total amount of debt that the government owes to its creditors more than doubled More than doubled so i’m not sure which i’m not sure which

Ahmad (24:10.327)
Eh, prob-

Ahmad (24:14.417)
probably dub, I was going to say doubled, yeah. Mate, I’m telling you, look, they used to say to us, they used to say, there’s no money to pay the doctors, there’s no money to pay for the NHS, there’s no money for this, there’s no money for that. And then I was like, but you’ve got money, you’ve got these money trees for everything else. You’ve got money trees for HS2, you got money trees for furlough, you got money trees for testing and tracing track or whatever.

Nigel Watson (24:36.796)

Nigel Watson (24:40.834)

Ahmad (24:42.129)
It was a war. You got money for the war and the bombing. I was like, come on, are you kidding?

Nigel Watson (24:47.726)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and these people you have there’s loads of them. They think the government is moral It’s like whoa, we’ve got problems you know that Me at me and you me and you who believe in free markets and voluntary exchange with bad people We’re immoral. Whereas if you believe in the big government model and compelled exchange

Ahmad (24:58.553)
or the righteous wars, you know?

Ahmad (25:08.561)

Nigel Watson (25:16.886)
You’re a good person. There’s an inversion there, isn’t there?

Ahmad (25:21.501)
Big time, big time. And some people might not see the direct correlation between health. At the end of the day, when a government is in this coercive, one-sided relationship and they start telling you, you can’t work unless you get this vaccine, medical experimental toxics shot, or you can’t send your kids to school.

Nigel Watson (25:25.26)
Mm-hmm. She just took, gone.

Nigel Watson (25:45.375)
Yep. Yeah.

Ahmad (25:47.013)
or you can’t do this, if that’s not impacting your health, what is? When you’re told you can’t leave your house and your mental health suffers, if that’s not impacting your health, at the end of the day, economic policy drives, the political class and that affects everything, your culture, your economy, your society, your education, your health, everything, it’s massive.

Nigel Watson (25:49.707)

Nigel Watson (26:04.128)

Nigel Watson (26:08.063)

Yeah, well I’ve got, okay, one thing. When it all happened, I couldn’t believe what was going on. Not particularly that the politicians were trying it on. What I couldn’t believe was that so many people who’d given me long lectures about how evil the National Socialist German Workers Party were, were fully on board with this stuff. All the human rights abuses that were happening.

Ahmad (26:36.218)

Nigel Watson (26:40.146)
in the UK like the like the rule of six and the state telling its own people that they couldn’t go and see their own mothers and people just accepted it they and some people were really enthusiastic supporters of the authoritarianism and for me that’s what I still wake up and I know most many people have probably said this on your podcast but

Ahmad (26:53.446)
Yeah, no.

Nigel Watson (27:07.662)
It’s like a bad dream. It’s like, did that really happen? And it did. So, you know, that was one of the main reasons why I moved to Finland, or took the whole family over to Finland, is that it wasn’t as bad here. And I just couldn’t stand to be around people who went along with things that they should never have gone along with.

Ahmad (27:31.853)
Amen. You know what’s really funny though, Nigel, the funny thing is there’s, I know so many people who are like, it’s all these goddamn bastard Tories, the conservatives, you know what? If we need to get labor in and labor will fix it, you know, and, oh, we hate the government. We, we, we hate, I know we hate Tories, we hate Boris. And then they go, but you know what? But they’ll still follow the government policies.

Nigel Watson (27:45.226)
Yeah, yeah, let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about that.

Ahmad (27:55.921)
So on one side, they’re badmouthing the Tories and Boris. And by the way, let me make it clear. I hate them all. When I’m having a go at the, at the labor, don’t, don’t. Yeah, exactly. People think though I’m, I’m a conservative. No, I’m not. I’m politically homeless. You know, I’m politically homeless. They’re all scum.

Nigel Watson (27:57.226)

Nigel Watson (28:03.402)
Yeah, there’s no difference between them. It’s, you know, we know that there’s no difference between them.

Nigel Watson (28:15.51)
You’re a supporter of human rights. You’re a supporter of human rights and morality. That’s what you are. You’re an opponent of tyranny. You value your freedom and you’re frustrated by other people who seem not to value their own freedom and seem to be willing to sell it down the river for their.

Ahmad (28:22.467)

Ahmad (28:27.58)

Ahmad (28:37.211)

Nigel Watson (28:41.766)
NHS salaries or help out to eat out or an opportunity to drink wine in their back garden on furlough Whilst teenagers were committing suicide because The and these people have the nerve to virtue signal So I forgive these people. I am I am a christian and I do forgive these people but what I worry about is that I think some of them have learnt but

Ahmad (28:45.838)

Ahmad (28:50.502)

Ahmad (29:00.537)
Mate, you just nailed it.

Nigel Watson (29:11.574)
but many of them, they’re hardwired into liking authoritarianism. They like the big government model. And I can talk about why they like it if you want, or if you wanna ask a few more questions before.

Ahmad (29:22.325)
Yeah, 100%. And I just want to say you nailed it. There’s a lot of people who were grateful to the government for the lockdowns and for the draconian measures. And they were like, please, please do it more. I don’t know, I was trying to find the picture and I couldn’t find it, but Bob Moran is this amazing cartoonist. And he’s done this picture of the government. And you can see behind this man in a black suit, he’s got government, he’s holding an umbrella.

Nigel Watson (29:45.197)

Ahmad (29:52.009)
and he’s got his trousers down and he’s pissing on this man who’s prostrating in front of him with a mask and he’s pissing on top of him. And the guy’s like, thank you. It’s raining, thank you. And it’s like, how do we get to this point where people just prostrate in front of authority, evil authority, and are grateful for it? And you and I are the bad ones.

Nigel Watson (29:56.73)

Nigel Watson (30:03.65)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Nigel Watson (30:18.006)
Well, I think, yeah, I think that one of the main reasons is that they believe that it’s in their self-interest to bow down to authority. So an obvious example would be NHS doctors and nurses who’ve gone along with something that, you know, regardless of the lethality of the messenger RNA injections, regardless of that, they went along

with coercion. They were they were injecting people who were because they are wanting to go on holiday. They had to go or they had to take a flight for work reasons or they were a care home worker or they were like an 18 year old who wanted to go to a music festival. They would be that is coercion and I’ve done YouTube videos on this.

Ahmad (30:48.902)

Nigel Watson (31:16.63)
check out Nigel Watson YouTube. I’ve done YouTube videos on this, like of just telling people what happened, reminding them of what happened because it should never be forgotten. So I think there were plenty of people that went along with it, not just the NHS doctors and nurses. They all must have known what was going on. I would say by the summer of 2020, they must have known that there was no pandemic.

Ahmad (31:46.172)
Yeah, yeah.

Nigel Watson (31:47.674)
inconceivable. The hospital doctors and nurses they would have known that the hospitals were pretty much empty. I remember seeing hospital you know doctors and nurses and teachers like I used to live near a golf course. The golf course was rammed during lockdowns.

Ahmad (32:08.442)

Nigel Watson (32:12.318)
So I think I think people went along with it because it suited them and I think the other thing that I would say Just one sec

Ahmad (32:12.41)
So, Nigel, I wasn’t working.

Ahmad (32:17.405)
I’ll g-

Ahmad (32:21.209)
Now I was just going to say, so I have lots of colleagues who are doctors. And I can tell you right now, I was not working in a hospital because I’m full time private and my colleagues were still working the NHS and I was ringing and like, and I was stuck in my garden. I couldn’t leave, couldn’t do anything. I was like, what is it like? And, but, and, um, they were all laughing. They’re like, this is great. We’re getting paid to be at home, lighting up the barbecue. And I was like, don’t you feel bad though that your patients aren’t getting treated and the waiting lists are going up. And, and they were just like,

Nigel Watson (32:22.582)
Don’t be, just, just.

Nigel Watson (32:31.884)

Nigel Watson (32:42.294)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ahmad (32:50.829)
Nah, this is great. And it was just, the moral compass wasn’t there. I was like, how the hell can you act like this? They’re like the free stuff. And I can tell you right now, yeah, all of them, exactly, all of them were saying the same thing. Hospitals are quiet, hospitals are dead. Nothing’s happening. And I was like, then where the hell is this pandemic? And the problem is, I’m not gonna name names, but I just did a podcast with someone.

Nigel Watson (32:58.664)
No, they like the free stuff. They like the free stuff. They like the furlough. They like having it easy, not working many hours.

Ahmad (33:19.129)
And I asked him, was there a pandemic? And he went, yeah. And he was like, yeah, because the who called it? The who called it? And I was like, stop. I mean, they’re using technicalities and old definitions and you know, and I know there was nothing.

Nigel Watson (33:22.05)
Yeah, I heard that. Yeah.

Nigel Watson (33:30.006)
Yeah, two plus two plus two equals five. Yeah, right, ho, yeah.

Ahmad (33:33.901)
Right? Well the who said it was so it must be the case. Really? Is that what we’ve come down to? Anyway you’re gonna say something.

Nigel Watson (33:37.994)
Yeah, yeah, and yeah, yeah.

But yeah, okay, so what I would say is again, this is tapping into the big government model People have got used to the idea that it’s perfectly moral To live off other people’s money So i’ll get this on my channel. They’ll say oh the solution to all of our problems Is that we just need to tax the rich more So you then say to them? Well, who are the rich like who are these people? Like how do you get rich?

You know, these basically two options. You get rich as an employee by working your butt off, doing a great job for your boss. If you don’t do a great job for your boss, they’ll fire you because the cost of your wages to them will be greater than the income that you’re generating for your boss. So they’ll make a decision to get rid of you. So the way to get on as an employee is

work hard, make yourself valuable to the employer. Again, it’s all about service, yeah? If you serve other people effectively in the free market, you’re rewarded for it. Then the other way I guess is as an entrepreneur, which is essentially kind of a bit of a speculative activity in that you take your life savings, you get a loan from the bank maybe secured against your property.

and you set up a business and you hope that your business will produce things that consumers will like in sufficient quantities for you to make a profit. But there’s no guarantee that will happen. It could be that what you thought was a gap in the market wasn’t or people weren’t prepared to pay a high enough price for you to turn a profit. So again, a lot of people have been…

Nigel Watson (35:40.878)
propagandized by school, university, and telebox into thinking that profit is bad. Profit isn’t bad, profit is a sign that you’ve been serving your fellow man effectively because people of their own free will have chosen to buy your product because they see it as being a good value for money. If you try to overcharge, then people will.

go somewhere else and your business will go bust. Now, again, this is the crucial thing is that we don’t have a free market economy. The last time we had something like that in Britain, I would say, kind of was the 150 years leading up to 1914. And I think that’s when, you know, we’ve been on this road to serfdom, you know, the technocracy, growing government.

Ahmad (36:17.67)

Nigel Watson (36:36.142)
control over the economy and over our lives. So I think a lot of people, I think, oh, just because I can breathe in and out, I’m entitled to consuming stuff that’s been produced by other people, by these like rich people. And it’s sort of social justice for the government to take from one group of people and give it to me.

Ahmad (36:47.101)

Nigel Watson (37:03.81)
So of course they like the big government model because they think that they’re on the right side of it. My life’s gonna improve if I elect these people into power because they’ll use the boys in black and the big sticks, ultimately, violence or the threat of violence to enforce their will and confiscate from one group to redistribute to another. So another Mises, no, it’s Hayek, I think, Hayek quote is…

you know what governments try to do is that they treat their own citizens unequally in order to make them equal which is basically no different from what the national socialist german workers party did you know they pursued their own version of social justice you know they said this is particular group who are really rich they’re the source of all your problems and all you have

do is to vote us into power and then we’ll use the power of the state to basically nick their stuff and give it to you and I think that that’s why there’s still many people who are supportive of this big government model they’re effectively supporting theft and coercion and violence or the threat of it and it’s immoral

Ahmad (38:09.917)
Mmm. Ahem.

Ahmad (38:23.225)
I’ve never ever thought of it like that. Absolutely fascinating and you’re on the money. Pardon the pun. Mate, you’ve nailed it. You’ve nailed it. Can I just add something to that?

Nigel Watson (38:34.734)
Thanks. These are these are not my ideas. These are high X Von Ludwig von Mises

Ahmad (38:40.252)
I… I know.

Ahmad (38:43.737)
No, I get that, I get that. And the funny, you know when you’re saying.

Nigel Watson (38:45.762)
but you gotta do the reading. And all of these books, you know, you’ve got, yeah, sorry, shut up.

Ahmad (38:51.889)
Shut up, just, Nigel, stop, one second. Conversation, I like conversations, a mutual exchange of ideas, please. So my friend, what I was gonna say was the idea of getting rich the way you described it, it only works in a free market. I see a lot of people getting rich in the current system that we have through corruption, through contracts with the government.

Nigel Watson (39:14.266)
Mm-hmm. Correct.

Ahmad (39:19.641)
So for example, you know, a lot of people say to me, oh, the NHS is, you know, we need to fund it. There’s not enough money. These poor doctors and nurses haven’t got money. Man, I can tell you right now, it’s a wash with money. It is the biggest gravy train ever. And the contracts go to people with funny handshakes. You know the funny handshakes? It’s the same people who get the contracts. I’ll give you an example. At my daughter’s birthday party, there’s a guy who works in…

Nigel Watson (39:31.682)

Nigel Watson (39:37.831)
Yeah, yeah.

Ahmad (39:45.469)
engineering and electrical kind of distribution. He does contracts with NHS. And I was talking to him about it. He goes, oh man, the corruption is crazy. And I was like, what do you mean? He goes, well, this hospital chief executive said to me, Oh, you know what? We’ve got 1.8 million that we’ve not spent in our budget. Um, I want you to build some of these power distributing things. And he goes, but you don’t need it. He goes, it doesn’t matter. We need to spend it.

Nigel Watson (39:55.074)

Ahmad (40:12.633)
and I want you to draw up now.” And he goes, but you need to tell me where you want it, what you want. He goes, look, you’re the private company, just draft a proposal and then we’ll pretend it’s our proposal. And, um, and then we’ll, we’ll pay the money. And the, he went, I can’t do that. You’re asking me to write your own proposal. I mean, that’s my name going on that. That’s ridiculous.

And he goes, it’s not even worth 1.8 million. He goes, we’ll be spending too much. We’ll be charging you too much. He goes, listen, I’ve spoken to your boss already. He goes, you’ve spoken to my boss already. He goes, yeah, if you’ve got problems, speak to him. So then he went back to his director and his director went, yeah, I had a chat with, you know, whoever, blah, and the chief executive. Mate, just drop the proposal and yeah, we’ll take the 1.8 million. He went, but this is all wrong. This is all illegal. He goes, just do it.

And he couldn’t, so he resigned from his post. And it’s immoral. And he goes, Amid, the way it works is, they’re all bestie buddies, they’re all part of that same club. I’m not gonna mention which one, the funny handshake one. And they’re all just greasing each other’s pockets and lining it. And that’s how it works. Good people like you and me going to…

Nigel Watson (41:11.67)
certainly immoral all good thing for doing that

Nigel Watson (41:20.702)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Nigel Watson (41:29.739)
mm-hmm yes you’ve got you’ve got you’ve got you’ve got an organization is nominally private but it’s not it’s not really is what muscle enie called the union of states with corporate power you know he was a guy you about fascism and that’s how we define fascism that’s yet this

Ahmad (41:34.301)

Nigel Watson (41:54.274)
fascist technocracy in the UK. Yeah, 100%.

Ahmad (41:56.445)
That’s it, fascist, and so what I was gonna say was, now what we’ve got is these governments that are actually agents of the corporations, but they give lip service, so they go on their mic, and they say to the public, like Labour will go, we will tax the rich and take the money from the rich and distribute, and all the plebs go, oh, thank you, great, theft, we love theft, love a bit of theft. Yeah, love a bit of theft, and then when they do get into power, Labour go, suckers.

Nigel Watson (42:05.357)

Nigel Watson (42:10.094)
Yeah, yeah.

Nigel Watson (42:17.406)
and all the developers go like this.

Nigel Watson (42:22.688)

Ahmad (42:25.857)
We just carry on doing same that conservatives did and then the conservatives say the same and every election cycle The public get fooled the public fall for the crap and don’t realize that the politicians aren’t serving us. They’re serving the corporations

Nigel Watson (42:27.146)
Um, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Nigel Watson (42:37.214)
Yeah, yeah, so like

Nigel Watson (42:43.25)
So two things on that. I did a video about Rochdale Council and since I did it, something else has happened there. So Rochdale Council is a classic example of it. They do loads and loads of schemes. I don’t know, like infrastructure type schemes. And from my subjective point of view, they turn Rochdale into a mess. It looks horrible. And.

all of these schemes cost a lot of money. So let’s just say the developers that they must appoint to undertake the schemes must be very happy with the councillors, the decision to go ahead with the project and award them. But then the other thing is, is that amazes me is that some people in Rochdale, again, it’s the socialist ones. These are the people that are constantly asking for the rich, somebody else to pay more tax, never.

them themselves to pay more tax or with somebody else. So what these people don’t understand is that the money spent could have been spent on something else by the people that actually earned that money. So you know you’ve got local businesses in Rochdale there was a great pub that’s just gone bust and basically the people and the owners of the pub have

Ahmad (43:40.637)

Nigel Watson (44:06.826)
they’ve correctly pinned it on Rochdale council. But there’s no spending power left in the town because business rates are sky high. Local people are paying stupid amounts in council tax. So no one’s got any money to spend. So how’s a private business gonna turn a profit? It’s like a parasite that’s killed its host, or it’s killing its host. Rochdale is dying on its feet.

Ahmad (44:31.709)

Nigel Watson (44:34.806)
But I guess a lot of the socialists, they think, oh, this really nice because maybe they don’t pay so much tax. All they’re in the business of is calling for other people to pay more tax so that they hope that they can benefit from it and that’s fair.

Ahmad (44:53.181)
I’ve got a few more questions. So Austrian economics, are there any countries in the world that are actually practicing it? So just before this podcast, I’ve started a new thing, which is I’m gonna start interviewing my supporters who’ve reached out to me and told me their stories. And I’m gonna make little podcast episodes of like four or five of my listeners. And so I just did the first one this morning before you. And it’s a guy called Ernst in Austria. And he works in his…

Nigel Watson (44:54.382)
See you tomorrow. Yeah, yeah.

Nigel Watson (45:02.604)

Ahmad (45:22.385)
family’s joinery and he’s telling me about this shit show that was going on in Austria. And it doesn’t sound like in Austria they’re practicing Austrian economic policy. So if they’re not doing it in Austria, are they doing it anywhere in the world?

Nigel Watson (45:25.483)


Nigel Watson (45:32.552)
Oh no

Nigel Watson (45:38.238)
Well, look, Austrian economics really started in the 1920s. So it does just about predate Keynesianism. But I guess what the Austrian economists were doing was studying economic history. In fact, they’re very big on that. Then they’re against economic modeling. For quite complicated reasons, but, you know, it’s difficult to predict the future. Human behavior is.

It’s unpredictable because our tastes and preferences change how we might react to a particular stimulus. It can change over time because, you know, the other thing is human beings do this learning thing. So Austrians are very interested in economic history. And what they would say is that the type of society that they would want is, is the type of society that the UK had from, I don’t know, maybe 1820 right through to 1914. Another example would be Hong Kong.

um so you know it went from being a very poor country to well prior to the ccp technocratic takeover so one of the richest countries on the planet you’d also have the american um sort of economic miracle that was also based on free markets and liberty so those are the exact oh i guess yeah and i guess the other thing you’d say too is what’s happened in

Ahmad (47:02.661)
gain 1800s.

Nigel Watson (47:09.894)
Eastern Europe, but those countries have developed really quickly once the Berlin Wall went down.

Ahmad (47:12.721)

Ahmad (47:18.033)
but not the-

Nigel Watson (47:18.034)
Also Russia, honestly like this is the thing that I urge people to do is go onto YouTube and go and have a look at these like travel blogs in Bratislava. Go and have a look at a travel blog of somebody in Moscow. Just look at the street scenes. Look how people are dressed. Look how healthy they look. Look how clean the streets are. Look how prosperous the place is. And then compare that to Manchester or London.

Because I think this is the thing that I’ve noticed is that many Brits, they tend to assume that everywhere is as bad as Britain. And that’s not true.

Ahmad (47:57.629)

Nigel Watson (48:00.862)
not true at all. Living standards in the UK have collapsed.

Ahmad (48:02.073)
Mate, there’s…

Living standards have collapsed and, you know, I’ll tell you a funny story. Can I tell you a funny story? So like I was born in Scotland in 1975 to parents from Pakistan. My parents came over when they were like teenagers. So very, very long time ago. But as young adults saving up their money, you know, they still wanted to go back to Pakistan, visit their family and relatives and they would drag us. And, you know, we’d go there and be like, can’t we just go somewhere like Spain or France, like everyone else?

Nigel Watson (48:07.955)
And you can see it, you can just see it.

Nigel Watson (48:19.982)

Nigel Watson (48:29.783)

Ahmad (48:34.757)
But no, we would go places where there was mosquitoes and para-Otogies and whatnot. And we’d go where the roads had potholes and, you know, the infrastructure was just crumbling and we used to be like, what the hell? There’s a road with a massive hole in it? Like the idea of a pothole, which is ridiculous. Mate, the roads now in Britain are just like they were when I was growing up as a kid, my recollection of Pakistan. You have to dodge.

Nigel Watson (48:35.819)

Nigel Watson (48:40.599)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nigel Watson (48:46.861)
Yeah, yeah.

Nigel Watson (48:51.562)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Nigel Watson (48:58.122)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ahmad (49:03.621)
holes, they’re car killers. They will destroy your car, the rims, and they’re not just one or two, everywhere, everywhere.

Nigel Watson (49:07.479)
Yeah, yeah.

Nigel Watson (49:13.45)
Yeah, well, so one point there, right? So if you look at Britain’s infrastructure, it’s Victorian, who built it? Private sector did. The other thing as well, the key principle of Austrian economics is you mentioned saving, because that used to be a cultural, I know.

Ahmad (49:25.739)

Nigel Watson (49:38.258)
In some cultures, saving is deemed to be more important than others. And Austrians would share that view on saving being important. Because what saving is, it’s the act of like postponing gratification, isn’t it? It’s postponing consumption. And what, yeah. And what that then creates is a pool of what economists would call like loanable funds. It’s like money in a…

Ahmad (49:49.552)

Ahmad (49:53.809)
Delayed gratification, yeah.

Nigel Watson (50:07.346)
In a real banking system, not fiat one, but in a real banking system, that would then provide banks With the finances to make loans to businesses And those businesses would then be purchasing like machinery capital And that’s That drives your technological advances that drives increases in output per worker what they call productivity And it’s that makes countries

prosperous. So one of the main differences between the Keynesians and the Austrians is on this issue of consumption. Keynesians want more consumption. They see saving as a bad thing. Austrians are the opposite. They view saving as a good thing because it provides the loanable funds to finance productive investment and it’s investment that drives productivity growth and ultimately our living standards.

Ahmad (51:07.089)
So it’s really funny.

Nigel Watson (51:07.518)
I’m reading Robinson Crusoe. I’m reading Robinson Crusoe at the moment. And there’s a great example of it. It’s probably unintentional. Robinson Crusoe, he’s got a choice. He can either go out and like fish with his hands.

Ahmad (51:11.453)

Ahmad (51:20.894)
Mm. Ahem.

Nigel Watson (51:21.666)
tries that it’s not too successful you know he spends all day maybe catching one fish so his living standards are rubbish so how can he improve on the situation well basically one day he can decide to go hungry and go into the forest and find some like I don’t know coconut rope or something make himself a net so that’s if he does that it might take him two or three days so during that two or three day period he’s got to sacrifice consumption

Ahmad (51:47.287)

Ahmad (51:52.073)

Nigel Watson (51:52.194)
but the long run payoff is that his productivity, once he’s got the net, is sky high. And it’s the same principle. We’ve not been prepared to sacrifice consumption to fund investment, and that’s why Britain is what it is. It’s creaking. We don’t invest enough. Our economy is more orientated towards consumption, and it’s not orientated enough towards investment. Finland’s the opposite.

Ahmad (51:55.527)

Ahmad (52:12.943)

Nigel Watson (52:23.298)
then there’s the total opposite.

Ahmad (52:26.661)
So they are following a kind of Austrian economic model.

Nigel Watson (52:31.134)
Well, in terms of investment, yeah. Finns understand that. So they’re also into progress. So there might be a building, and in Britain, they carry on using it. In Finland, it’s like, no, let’s knock it down. Let’s build something better. Okay, so it might cause some short run problems or whatever, but they just get on with it. And people, I think the social contract is still here. So Finns, they have to take pride in.

Ahmad (52:41.509)

Ahmad (52:47.919)

Nigel Watson (53:00.674)
their country, they take pride in their local communities, they take pride in themselves. They’re not too proud to serve their fellow man and work hard. And if that means making some short run sacrifices then they’ll do it.

Ahmad (53:12.701)
I’m saying that.

Ahmad (53:18.653)
I don’t want this to be about me, but I’m kind of hearing you is making me think about me. So I spent a lot of my 20s and early 30s in debt. Being a junior doctor and working in London, not easy, not easy. And I hated it. I’ll be honest with you, Nigel, I hate debt. And the first thing I wanted to do was get out of debt. And then when I was working as a consultant, yeah, as soon as I worked as a consultant, all I wanted to do was save my money, save my money, save my money, and which I did.

Nigel Watson (53:30.622)
Yeah. No, no.

Nigel Watson (53:37.45)
Yeah, yeah, you’re right to. You’re right to. Great advice.

Nigel Watson (53:47.404)

Ahmad (53:48.165)
And then, and then, you know, furlough started eating away my little savings because I couldn’t work. And then I built myself back up again. And then I had some money at the beginning of 2023. And I was like, I was really happy. I was putting some extra money away to eat away at the mortgage. Cause I really hate the mortgage. That’s my only debt now. And I was like, but I don’t want to put all my savings into that mortgage cause it won’t get rid of the mortgage. And then I won’t have a buffer.

Nigel Watson (53:55.178)

Nigel Watson (53:58.871)

Nigel Watson (54:03.384)

Nigel Watson (54:08.878)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm.

Ahmad (54:17.489)
So I had a bit of money and I was like, what do I want to do with this? Instead of it just sitting there in the bank earning nothing, I also thought, I want to invest this in something important that I think is important. So I built a garden studio, bought the cameras, the table, the mic, but it wasn’t to make money. Yeah, but I didn’t do that to make money. This wasn’t to make money. This wasn’t…

Nigel Watson (54:19.406)
Hmm, hmm, I understand that.

Nigel Watson (54:33.59)
Yeah, yeah, there you go. Yeah. Yeah an economist would call that investment You invested Look there’s nothing wrong with making money Ahmed this right we have to get we have to get this right There is nothing wrong in making money As provided that your customers are choosing of their own free will to purchase your service There is a big problem with burning money

Ahmad (54:46.307)
I know-

Ahmad (54:51.757)
I know, I know, but it was an investment.

Ahmad (54:57.821)
100% No, but at the time…

I know, I know, but at the time the investment was in freedom. This was an, and you know, you can, you can invest in different things. For me, it was freedom. Like how do we fight back? And I thought I need to create a podcast and I need to start talking about these important issues. This is, I’m going to invest some of my money into this endeavor.

Nigel Watson (55:03.01)
God, sorry.

Ahmad (55:25.561)
And if you people look, I wasn’t charging anything for the podcast. I didn’t have a paid sub stack or anything. It was just, I just free content. Cause this was a fight back. This is because what more investment can you have than your freedom? If my kids are going to be locked up and forced to have jabs in the future and I’m going to be locked down again, you know, and if I can invest now to prevent that, that’s a pretty goddamn good return for my money. Um, but then I found that I couldn’t work. I got this. Yeah.

Nigel Watson (55:26.85)

Nigel Watson (55:31.296)

Nigel Watson (55:35.08)

Nigel Watson (55:50.342)
It’s also morality Ahmed as well. It’s also morality. I think we’ve talked a few times before this and you you’re a decent guy Um so You had no choice if you’re like me you had no choice. You had no choice. It was it was just something that you had to do so It’s just yeah, it’s just it’s just in your dna you had to

Ahmad (55:54.627)

Ahmad (56:01.293)
I’d like to think so. But what I’m trying to say is savings…

I had no choice.

Ahmad (56:10.813)
100% Meh, I-

Ahmad (56:15.437)
Yeah, I cannot go back into that system. Even if tomorrow you said, oh, go back, get your salary and everything. No, I’m surrounded by people I don’t respect anymore, a system that is corrupt that I don’t respect anymore. And Andrew Wakefield told me, Ahmed, you’re really gonna struggle keeping one foot in each door in each camp. You’re gonna have to decide where you’re staying in or staying out. And at the time I was like, nah.

Nigel Watson (56:30.103)


Ahmad (56:45.017)
He was like, they’re not going to let you stay. And I was like, no, I’m going to stay in both. And you know, you convince yourself like, you know, I’ve got a duty to help my patients and people will need access to me. And if I’m in the system, I can help them change it. Do you know what? No, I tried that with the NHS. And the reason why I left the NHS is because I realized I couldn’t change it. I need, it was going to kill me. It was going to destroy me. And I think now it’s the whole medical profession. I just, I can’t stay in the system. It’s too damaged and broken.

Nigel Watson (56:45.249)

Nigel Watson (56:54.955)

Nigel Watson (56:59.362)

Nigel Watson (57:15.706)
we’re in a spiritual battle, aren’t we? So it’s just, yeah. Look, I think there’s many of the problems stem from a moral decline. So going back to what you talk about with debt. So greed is not good. You know, being greedy is not a good thing, particularly if you’re getting rich in a way that’s…

Ahmad (57:15.717)

Ahmad (57:25.712)

Nigel Watson (57:41.666)
that doesn’t really involve serving other people. So a great example, I think, that we all experienced was what I used to call a location, location phenomenon, you know, where people would watch these, what I used to call property porn TV shows. And it’s like, sod serving your fellow man or woman. All you need to do to get rich is go to the bank, go and borrow like half a million quid or more.

Ahmad (57:55.175)

Ahmad (58:01.287)

Nigel Watson (58:07.422)
and go down to the property casino and slap it all on 13 black or something. You know, slap a bit of paint on it. Other people are going to do the same. They’re going to borrow even more than what you borrowed so they’ll pay more than what you paid and you’ll be able to flip it on. And it’s just greed.

Ahmad (58:12.796)

Ahmad (58:22.137)
Yeah. Yep.

Ahmad (58:28.733)

Nigel Watson (58:28.962)
And that greed was fueled by central banks who kept the price of money too low For too long, you know, they kept interest rates too low for too long And people have got burned by that and gone

Ahmad (58:38.777)
Yeah. You know what?

One of the things that governments tell us is that they’ll inject this money, this quantitative easing, and then you get this trickle down effect and everybody is a winner. My understanding is that’s not the case. What happens is that people who have the first access to that tranche of money are the ones who really make the money. And then what then happens is everyone else, because of the increase in the money supply and the inflationary problems, lose money. They basically have less strength power, purchasing power.

Nigel Watson (58:54.251)

Nigel Watson (58:59.21)

Nigel Watson (59:08.507)
Yep. Yeah.

Ahmad (59:12.409)
and their quality of standard of living goes down. Am I right?

Nigel Watson (59:17.106)
100% yeah, it’s basically talking about inflation so what an Austrian would say is that inflation is an increase in the money supply and A rise in the price level is just a consequence of what inflation is But you know, my people aren’t taught this it that’s all Keynesian mumbo jumbo instead about cost-pushing demand-pull inflation they’re not really taught about

the quantity theory of money. Certainly that wasn’t, it was on the syllabus at A level, but it was no exam questions ever came up on it. And I don’t think that was a coincidence. So basically what I would say is that the price level, it’s like a balance between the amount of stuff that’s being produced and the amount of money, right? And if the amount of money is growing faster than the quantity of stuff, prices go up.

Ahmad (01:00:10.829)

Nigel Watson (01:00:16.618)
And what happened, you know, before we had fiat money, before we had, when we had gold and silver, due to technological advances, output increased more rapidly than the money supply, because the money supply was just basically gold and silver. So every year a little bit was discovered through mining and whatever. So the money supply did grow, but it grew at a much slower rate than output. So through most of human history, we actually had deflation.

as the norm i.e. like falling prices so people didn’t need pay rises to become better off because the same money wage was buying more goods and services as the price level was falling so you know whereas what we have today is i don’t know Scylla the cleaner or something her wages or Nigel the teacher his wages

Ahmad (01:01:03.677)

Nigel Watson (01:01:16.934)
never kept pace with inflation so i was i was worse off every single year even though i was getting um pay rises

Ahmad (01:01:26.341)
Yeah, yeah. It’s funny, you know, my dad used to say to me, why is it you’re a surgeon and you’re in debt? Why is it you can’t afford to buy your own house? I came over and I worked the markets and I bought a house within, you know, a few months. And I was like, dad, your quality of life was better because you earned a lot more money and things didn’t cost as much. How much was your first house? You went 3,000 pounds. And I went, how much were you earning in that year? He went 3,000 pounds.

Nigel Watson (01:01:51.863)


Ahmad (01:01:56.709)
And I was like, well, dad, you know, a flat in London now is 250,000. And as a junior doctor, I’m making 35,000. So you bought a house with your first year’s salary, you know? And he didn’t get it. I think a lot of baby boomer generation people don’t really understand how good they had it and have the generation X onwards got totally and utterly screwed. You know what I mean?

Nigel Watson (01:02:02.327)

Yeah. I can tell you why. Yeah. What-

Nigel Watson (01:02:22.374)
I understand it. You know, I bought a house in Croydon in the early 90s for about 50 grand. And at the time I was earning mid-20s. So it was about, I was borrowing less than two and a half times my salary. So if you work backwards, if I’m on say 22 grand and I’m borrowing two and a half times my salary.

Ahmad (01:02:42.286)
Yeah, yeah.

Nigel Watson (01:02:51.554)
The most I can pay is about 50 grand. 60 grand maybe if I push it to the max. Can’t pay any more than that. So what people can pay is effectively what they can borrow plus a tiny bit extra as a deposit. So what’s happened, we’ve had house price inflation because banks have been lending people more and more money. So if you lend somebody more money, they can pay more money.

Ahmad (01:02:58.416)

Nigel Watson (01:03:19.894)
So of course the house price is going to rise.

Ahmad (01:03:24.421)
money that doesn’t even exist.

Nigel Watson (01:03:24.462)
So if you were to do a chart, if you were to do a chart, yeah, exactly, lent into existence, if you were to do a chart that showed household debt and house prices, just tracks it perfectly, positive correlation, just, but it’s not a surprise, you know, if you lend people more money, they can pay more money. So of course house prices will rise to that level that people can pay.

Ahmad (01:03:45.981)
Do you know what?

Ahmad (01:03:50.685)
Do you know what you’ve said that I never really, one of the many things that you said that I really didn’t think about was how, I knew economics impacted on health. I didn’t realize the power that it would have on morality. And I didn’t know, I didn’t really appreciate incentives either. And you know, but I should have, cause there’s that guy, Charles Munger, and he goes, show me the incentive and I’ll show you the outcome. And so what I mean by that is, for example, you can even look at like benefits for single parents. Single parents,

Nigel Watson (01:04:07.038)

Nigel Watson (01:04:14.367)

Nigel Watson (01:04:18.454)

Ahmad (01:04:20.613)
benefits are going to be more, I think, than a young couple together. So they’ll be like, well, I’ll be a single parent because I got a lot more benefits and a lot more money. And what does that do? It destroys the family unit. So you’ve, I mean, you’ve got all these perverse incentives and it does affect morality. And it all comes back to the goddamn government. We need to stop this government machine. I don’t know about you, but is there a correlation between Austrian economics and being libertarian?

Nigel Watson (01:04:27.073)

Nigel Watson (01:04:30.39)

Nigel Watson (01:04:36.236)
Yeah, yeah.


Nigel Watson (01:04:44.304)
Yeah, we need to just…

Ahmad (01:04:50.612)
Is there that kind of like

Nigel Watson (01:04:50.822)
Oh, well, yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, definitely. One thing that we need to say, because there’ll be people that come along with this, they’ll go, oh, what about monopolies? Free market won’t work with this monopoly. And so that, because the consumer gets exploited. And what I would say to that is, the monopolies are created by the government through regulation. There’s no better example than healthcare in the US.

Ahmad (01:05:19.036)

Nigel Watson (01:05:19.19)
If the government is regulating its regulating a market and keeping out new entrance prices, you know, prices will stay elevated. So what we have to do is to is to get rid of government regulation and let people be the judge of quality themselves. So you know, rather than relying on the MHRA to judge the quality of mRNA injection, maybe we should be doing that.

Ahmad (01:05:45.757)

Nigel Watson (01:05:50.29)
Again, so this is another, I don’t know, I’m sure you believe in this too, is that there needs to be more personal responsibility. What goes inside our bodies is we should not defer that to some government expert and then if it goes peak tong afterwards, like, you know, get the government to pay compensation by looting somebody else’s income. It’s like who maybe did do due diligence.

Ahmad (01:05:58.313)
100%. Matt, I talk about this all the time.

Ahmad (01:06:20.517)
Yeah, yeah. So we’ve talked about the problems, Nigel. What are the solutions? How do we, we’ve got this goddamn central banks, governments, everything, yeah.

Nigel Watson (01:06:25.448)

Okay, I can give I can give you a I can give you a Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right. Let’s talk. Okay. So let’s just take the low hanging fruit. Yeah, because this is something that is exercising the minds of many people which is immigration So a lot of people they don’t like their taxes being spent housing people in four-star hotels who come over illegally and whatever

Um that is a very easy uh problem to fix and you just get rid of the reason why these people come which is basically get rid of all welfare get rid of the nhs get rid of state education get rid of state housing then you remove the incentive for these people to come the other thing that i would say is that if you do that

you’ll dramatically slash government spending. So guess what? You can also dramatically slash taxation.

Ahmad (01:07:35.825)

Nigel Watson (01:07:36.674)
The other, yeah, to like, I don’t know, like 5% enough to pay for law and order and national defense. And that’s where that’s the only legitimate role for government, those two things, enforcing private property rights. So imagine a situation if we were to establish that, the UK would still attract immigrants. And I certainly don’t believe in things like passports.

I don’t beli… After what’s happened, how can anybody trust the government, you know, with the power to decide who can and can’t live in your country or another country? These people are just… We can’t give them that power because we’re free sovereign individuals. And I believe that somebody should be able to go and live wherever they want to live in the world, provided that they pay their own way in the free market.

Ahmad (01:08:09.2)
Me neither.

Ahmad (01:08:25.966)

Nigel Watson (01:08:35.874)
that they produce something of value that somebody else of their own free religion wants to buy. I would go back to how things were prior to World War 1, no passports, we had people coming and going, there’s no problem with that. Free range, you know.

Ahmad (01:08:51.581)
Do you know what? I think that’s the amnesia of humanity that people don’t realize 150 years ago, there was no income tax and there was no passports. You know what? If you wanted to go somewhere like America, you had to pay your shipping, your cost to sail over, and you had to be able to provide for yourself, and you had to work hard, and that was it. What’s wrong with that?

Nigel Watson (01:09:09.774)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nigel Watson (01:09:14.278)
What’s wrong with that? Yeah, what’s wrong with having to serve your fellow man? Nothing. Jesus was the servant king. He washed people’s feet. He wasn’t, you know, what makes people think that they have got a divine right to consume a share of somebody’s output without offering something in return? It’s just ridiculous. So yeah, that’s, yeah.

Ahmad (01:09:36.749)
You know, I play this, talking about Jesus, I always say, I really can’t see Jesus putting on a mask. I can’t see Jesus doing social distancing. Nigel, step back, six feet, buster, six feet. Authorities are telling me to stay six feet from you. I don’t see Jesus doing that. I don’t see Jesus saying, close the churches, close the churches. I don’t see Jesus saying, hey everyone, kneel down in front of the altar of the holy vaccine and take your shot.

Nigel Watson (01:09:53.954)
No. Well, he didn’t do that.

Ahmad (01:10:06.353)
Do not see Jesus doing that.

Nigel Watson (01:10:07.37)
No, no, Christianity is based on free will. That’s something that many people don’t get at all. It’s based on free will. You’ve got to make a decision to pick up your cross and follow the example of Jesus. In fact, that’s what I used to say. We’re here on earth to serve our fellow man, or and women obviously. But that’s what we’re here for.

Ahmad (01:10:18.072)

Ahmad (01:10:26.973)
Do you know what? Yeah.

Ahmad (01:10:32.689)

You know your solutions, I’ve got a little- I’ve got a little-

Nigel Watson (01:10:37.854)
and sometimes in life gone I’ve got this loads more to talk about but gone do you want to say anything more about immigration

Ahmad (01:10:42.873)
Yeah, don’t worry, we’re going. I’ve got a little tweak. No, about your solutions. I would do a little tweak. I would actually get, I would get.

Nigel Watson (01:10:49.578)
Right, okay, here’s another one, right? So monetary reform, what do we do? Get rid of central banks. We have competing private currencies.

Ahmad (01:10:53.853)

Nigel Watson (01:11:04.206)
Do you want me to go into what that might mean?

Ahmad (01:11:06.369)
No, no, just wait one second. I was going to say I would get rid of income tax completely. And what I would say is on every electronic transfer of money, I would charge like 0.1% or 0.05%. Not hard cash, not hard cash, not physical cash. I’d get rid of income tax completely. It would just be a small charge on electronic transmission of money. And that would fund defense.

Nigel Watson (01:11:12.652)

Nigel Watson (01:11:17.708)

Yeah, yeah, you can do that. Yeah, yeah.

Ahmad (01:11:34.949)
And like you said, law and order, but even that, the law and order would be decentralized. It would be local communities, local police officers policing their communities. So everybody knows everyone in the village, in the town, in the neighborhood. So you know what, when everybody knows each other, no one’s gonna start stealing or doing anything. And you also help each other. When there’s no welfare system, you go, you know what? John’s a good lad. He and his family have…

Nigel Watson (01:11:36.042)

Nigel Watson (01:11:47.383)


Nigel Watson (01:11:53.514)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no. Yeah.

Ahmad (01:12:02.557)
fell on hard times. Hey everybody, can we all pitch together and help out John? Do you see, when there’s a community and when you look after each other, it functions much better than when you don’t know each other and you go, oh, I’m gonna rely on the state, the same state that is a bully, that is a tyrant, that is stripping away your freedoms and is robbing you day and night. I mean, that’s the only thing I would say about income tax and everything.

Nigel Watson (01:12:12.054)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Nigel Watson (01:12:22.68)

Nigel Watson (01:12:26.302)
Yeah. Well, yeah, like basically you’re looking at five or 10%. That would be enough to fund law and order and national defense. So, you know, when you get the tax rate down that low, how you actually collect the money is it’s, you know, it’s not that it’s not that important when the tax when you don’t need to collect that much tax, you know.

Ahmad (01:12:29.263)

Nigel Watson (01:12:54.078)
The other thing as well that I would say that many big government people, they all say, oh, what about the poor? What about the poor? Well, I would say like, what about the poor now? Like you’ve got hope. I went to Manchester in September. I was shocked just the homelessness. The police doesn’t seem to be working. The whole town just or city stank of genetically modified cannabis. It’s a pretty dangerous place.

nhs doesn’t work does it unless you unless you want to See your gp by phoning them up and saying can I have a covid vaccine and then they’ll see you the next morning But other than that State schools, you know, they have some very interesting people dressed in fancy clothes Reading your kids fairy stories or teaching your kids about marxism Yeah, so like what would we do without these government services?

It would be terrible. Not. You know, what you would actually have is, you’d actually have entrepreneurs setting up schools. So people say, well, what about the poor? They can’t afford it. Well, you say, well, prior to the establishment of state education, rich people routinely set up schools. They routinely offered scholarships. With this day and age,

Ahmad (01:13:55.997)

Nigel Watson (01:14:22.15)
I’m educating people now for free by doing my YouTube channel. People like me and you, we understand charity. We do it. Whereas I think the people, the big government people, they’re guilty of projecting this oh well no one would do charity if you left it up to private individuals. They wouldn’t do it. What they’re doing is that they’re projecting their own personality onto us.

That they are the selfish ones. They wouldn’t do it. But I know there’s a couple of people back at home who do like real hardcore socialists who don’t declare their rental income on second homes. And at the same time they’re going, oh, the rich must pay more tax. Like about a month ago, me and my wife went to this, this place called Normark.

Ahmad (01:14:52.253)

Nigel Watson (01:15:21.638)
and there was a big iron works there run by some swedish geezer and basically inside there’s a restaurant there now and everything and there’s all information about what the swedish family did for normarket built hospitals built schools built all sorts of sports and leisure facilities in finland this is still kind of quite alive through this system they call it associations so

local people they get together and they maintain an athletics field or football or you know or they just do things like free coffee or whatever or like pull out these cinnamon buns like towards Christmas time and people just pay what they want. Like human beings, most human beings they love each other the only exceptions are these supporters of

Ahmad (01:16:10.757)

Nigel Watson (01:16:19.09)
Authoritarian, big government, socialism, fascism, same difference.

Ahmad (01:16:24.687)
100% Mate i’m gonna come back to that. I really need to pee. Can we pause and i’ll restart is that okay? I

Nigel Watson (01:16:28.075)

Nigel Watson (01:16:31.318)
You know what?

Ahmad (00:01.423)
Oh man, I feel so much better now.

Nigel Watson (00:03.35)
Ha ha

Ahmad (00:06.327)
It’s us men of a certain age with tiny bladders. We just need to go, man. How do we? And that, cause I was really, I’m really enjoying this conversation, but I was getting to a point where I was, I was like really uncomfortable. I was like, I need to go.

Nigel Watson (00:08.813)

Nigel Watson (00:22.494)
I’m on my second pint of water, so that’s my excuse and I’m sticking to it.

Ahmad (00:27.211)
My excuse is my coffee just runs straight through me. It’s really funny. I tried to give up coffee after I spoke to Amanda Devomer and I did for about three, four weeks and it was rough. And that, but now what I’ve do is on my coffee machine, you can set how many beans, how strong the coffee is. And I’ve gone to the bare minimum. And I still liked, I like drinking my coffee. I like drinking with my wife. It’s a thing we do together. And I don’t want to give it up, you know? But it runs straight through me.

Nigel Watson (00:31.82)


Nigel Watson (00:38.313)

Nigel Watson (00:42.462)
Mm-hmm. Okay. Oh.

Nigel Watson (00:51.382)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe I won’t watch that podcast then. I quite enjoy drinking coffee, so.

Ahmad (01:01.612)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nigel Watson (01:01.75)
that’s a big that’s a big finished thing as well people go around to each other’s houses and they sit at a table drink coffee and eat carb treats you know cinnamon buns and stuff

Ahmad (01:05.152)

Ahmad (01:15.987)
Well, my sister married a Swede and now lives in Stockholm and she speaks fluent Swedish, which is amazing, and they do fika, you know, coffee and the wee. Yeah, it’s nice. It is nice. But, you know, coming back to what you’re saying, you know, what I think is personally, you know, we we’ve been brainwashed, indoctrinated by the state into fearing our neighbor. And, you know, if you’re going back to, you know,

Nigel Watson (01:22.054)
oh yeah it’s nice

Nigel Watson (01:44.866)

Ahmad (01:45.355)
Christianity, you know, love thy neighbor. You know, and I’m not a Christian, but I love that. I love that. Love that thing. A lot of the religions, if you go back to their proper messages, actually say they’re pretty much the same things and they’re all very nice and they’re very good and love thy neighbor and you know, go out and I love talking to people. I love talking to you and all my other guests and you know, I got that from my dad. My dad loved talking to people. You would leave him for five seconds, turn your back and you know what?

Nigel Watson (01:48.825)

Nigel Watson (01:52.205)

Nigel Watson (02:11.197)
Mm. Yeah, yeah.

Ahmad (02:15.315)
making best friends with someone. And that taught me as a kid, actually most people are quite nice. Doesn’t matter what your background is or whatever, people are just nice people, but we’re now taught to fear. Fear our neighbor, fear the person down the street, that funny looking guy. And I think the government wants you to fear everyone and not talk to anyone and not trust anyone. But guess what? We are meant to, yeah, but we’re meant to love the government. Yeah.

Nigel Watson (02:18.539)

Nigel Watson (02:22.434)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.



Nigel Watson (02:38.144)
I’m being this as well and be envious that they’re very keen on that to be envious

Ahmad (02:44.511)
but we’re meant to love the government, trust the government, believe in the government. The government is this paternal, you know, caring entity when it’s in this inverted world, it could.

Nigel Watson (02:54.785)
It’s worse than that. I think it’s God. Many people these days worship government as God.

Ahmad (03:02.207)

Nigel Watson (03:03.962)
So long as they do what the government tells them to do, everything will be okay. And if bad things happen to somebody, it’s normally because they didn’t do what the government told them to do, and they had, they deserved what was coming. I had people, there was one I’m not gonna mention, when this, just as the injections were being rolled out, I basically…

Ahmad (03:10.482)

Ahmad (03:19.676)

Nigel Watson (03:32.81)
they tried a little bit with the quarantine camps didn’t they in New Zealand or Australia I said to this guy I said to this guy like do you think that’s morally right and he’s like oh well you know they should have had the injection

Ahmad (03:39.077)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nigel Watson (03:53.406)
Yeah Not not good, but I think going back to like morality and religion my advice to people is Read the books yourself Don’t go off secondhand information like justin wellby or you know some uh, Whoever it is some islamic cleric go and read the books yourself It’s like a historian. You’ve got to if you want to understand something look at the primary documents and then

Ahmad (03:55.083)
Cheer up!

Nigel Watson (04:23.07)
sit down with a coffee and a biscuit and have a think about it and then make your own mind up and don’t be a repeater station like listen to the BBC Radio 4 their take on something and then just regurgitate it word for word and pretend that’s your own thoughts. I call those people repeater stations. There’s loads of them immoral repeater stations.

Ahmad (04:48.628)
Yeah, that’s a good point.

Nigel Watson (04:48.798)
And it’s tough being around those people. It’s really tough being around those people. But that’s what I would say to people. That’s how I got into Christianity. As an intellectual exercise, I read the Quran and then I read the Bible. And it was actually, when I say the Bible, I actually read the New Testament. It was like a good news version. And that just like blew me away. And my thought was like, blinky neck.

Ahmad (04:53.038)

Nigel Watson (05:18.346)
This is not like because I worked in a private school the last sort of 15 16 years And they used to have like a chapel every friday and they’d have other religious services and whatever And then I read the bible myself. It’s like what? This isn’t anything to do with what i’m what they talk in the chapel. This is like chalk and cheese. What’s So people have been misled One thing that i’ve said before it’s like it’s like imagine if you fed

a child brussels sprouts and told them that they were eating strawberries if you ask them do you like strawberries they go i bloody hate strawberries they taste all sour and that’s basically what i can’t speak for islam not so much but i can you know i’ve studied christianity more and that’s definitely been misrepresented and corrupted and

But I would say, like, if you haven’t read one of the gospels of the New Testament, just do it. Do it as an intellectual exercise.

Ahmad (06:14.027)

Ahmad (06:21.239)
So I don’t know if you’ve heard me on the podcast talk about this, but I am, I very much believe in God. I very much believe that we’re in a spiritual battle. I’ve given up an organized religion of all sorts right now. I’m not a Muslim, haven’t been for over 15 years. I think while a lot of religions have got great common threads, they’ve been co-opted and captured.

Nigel Watson (06:50.314)
Yeah, yeah.

Ahmad (06:50.347)
guilt, shame and control and division and division rather than bringing humanity together. It’s, Oh, it’s my way or the highway or we’re the special people and you’re not. And it’s funny because I don’t want a one world religion. I really, really don’t want that. I want diversity. I want, I want a free market. I want free market religion, but I want proper religion. I want the real religions, the ones that, you know,

Nigel Watson (07:07.326)

Nigel Watson (07:16.63)
well it’s there it’s that but people the lazy so they go to somebody else who interpret and they end up with a corrupted version of it this place slays in this again slays in us

Ahmad (07:25.979)
Man, it’s nice… It’s nice hearing from someone who’s…

Ahmad (07:34.447)
Yeah, I’m really glad you’re saying it like this because you’re just calling it out for what it is. People are lazy. People need to stop being lazy. People need to take responsibility, do the hard work, invest their time and energy and not be spoon-fed and not… Yes.

Nigel Watson (07:35.127)
Sorry mate.

Nigel Watson (07:40.191)

Nigel Watson (07:48.938)
Yeah. Start serving your fellow man.

Ahmad (07:56.731)
Yes. And isn’t there… No, no, it’s all right. I like it. I’m saying don’t you feel like pleasure in serving humanity?

Nigel Watson (07:58.038)
Sorry mate, I’m interrupting too much.

Nigel Watson (08:11.202)
course it’s like being a parent so for those of us who are parents we know what it’s like you know

Your kids, they have free will and you respect their free will, but what you want, you’re there to guide them to set a good example. And it gives you enormous pleasure when you see them choosing the right path and doing good things and serving society, being a useful person in society.

Ahmad (08:43.435)

Nigel Watson (08:44.086)
That was always something that was inside me actually. I remember as a kid, my feeling was when I grow up, I want to do something useful. I want to make a positive contribution to society. I don’t wanna just earn money. I wanna do something useful. I want to help people. And I think that that’s inside many people, apart from the status who are into.

you know, greed and envy and power. You know, we’re gonna like pursue social justice via boys with big sticks and secret police and.

Ahmad (09:28.727)
What’s really upset me is that I’ve come to know a lot of some people in the freedom movement, big figures that you kind of looked up to in the last few years. And when you get to know them, you realize they’re driven by ego and all these things you’ve just talked about. They want power, they want fame, they want money. And when you realize that, it’s quite sad, it’s upsetting. It’s like, no, no.

Nigel Watson (09:46.326)

Nigel Watson (10:11.525)
I, I

Ahmad (10:18.647)

Nigel Watson (10:23.614)
And these people were miserable as anything. So miserable, so unhappy. There was one, actually I always remember that this is one of the richest families in Britain. And they were all druggies. And I think in the end, one, I think, I’m not sure if it was the mother or something, but they like found a body decomposing in a flat in London because they’d all been like just off the faces on drugs.

Ahmad (10:26.92)

Nigel Watson (10:52.258)
they’d inherited money. So there’s nothing wrong with earning money if you’re serving other people. And you know, like if you’ve written a fantastic book or you know, like you, Doc Malik, you got a dodgy ankle and you wanna carry on playing sport. I used to play a lot of sport. My left ankle actually repaired itself after about 25 years and me not playing football anymore. But you know, like somebody like you.

Ahmad (10:58.516)

Nigel Watson (11:21.814)
who can fix an ankle and like you can give me my Saturday afternoons back playing football with my mates.

Wow, what a life to do that, to have that, to, you know, imagine the amount of pleasure you’ve brought to people’s lives. I’m blowing smoke up your backside by the way, but it’s true.

Ahmad (11:36.597)
So I’m going to read it.

Ahmad (11:41.384)
Let me read out something to you.

Ahmad (11:46.399)
Well, I appreciate it. So listen to this. I got this message. Saturday, this Saturday, I said, Hey, I just saw you rang me. Is everything okay? And then she wrote back saying, Hey, I left you a voicemail. Everything is amazing. I was calling to say a big thank you. And you know what? I all pitted on her like half a year ago, but out of the blue, she rang me.

Nigel Watson (12:08.79)

Nigel Watson (12:13.942)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ahmad (12:15.191)
to just say thank you. Isn’t that nice? I mean, if that doesn’t make you feel great, I don’t know what does. And I think that’s what I miss from my job because I used to get these random messages out of the blue. Hey, Ahmed, it’s a year since you operated on me. Big thank you. Look at me, I’m hiking here, blah, blah. And man, I can tell you, Nigel, that was a good feeling. But now what I am getting, what I’m getting is lots of messages every day.

Nigel Watson (12:22.608)

Yeah, big time.

Nigel Watson (12:34.2)

Nigel Watson (12:39.723)
course it was.

Ahmad (12:44.715)
from people thanking me for the podcast and telling me what a difference it’s making. And if you don’t mind, I’m gonna speak for a little bit and explain a few things. So what I mean is, a lot of people are saying, oh, you should pick more controversial topics and even if it means you getting canceled, at least you’re doing the right thing. And I’m like, what? And then some people are like, oh, you should steer away from controversial things and get food to normies and then you’ll be more of a commercial success.

And I listened to these two camps and I’m like, just be quiet, leave me alone. I’m just doing my own thing. And yes, it’d be great to have a reach. You want to have a reach. You want to get through to as many people as possible, but you don’t want to do it because you’re driven by commercial, you know, materialistic goals. And equally, you know, I want to, I want to create a community. I want to foster people. A lot of people felt very alone. We were made to feel like we were, you know, freaks for thinking the way we did.

Nigel Watson (13:20.236)

Nigel Watson (13:25.783)

Nigel Watson (13:31.808)

Ahmad (13:43.583)
when we were not. And so it’s really nice just every day I get messages and it just makes me happy. So I’ll give you an example. I’m reading literally emails that I’ve not even opened yet. So today someone called Sandy emailed me at an 8.25 this morning. Thank you, Ahmed. I’m one of Dr. Cartland’s early members and I’ve been meaning to subscribe to you for a while. Your Dr. Malone interview, excellent by the way.

was a talk of our WhatsApp group for most of yesterday and reminded me to subscribe. Thank you for the incredible work you’re doing. Watch as the blessings of the universe are bestowed on you and your family in surprising and miraculous ways. Wow, I’ve got goosebumps. Mate, I kid you not, that’s the first time I’ve read that. Right, next, Zoe. Zoe, hi, Ahmed. This was at 938. So I’ve done quite a lot of research this week on germ theory virus, germ theory versus no virus.

Nigel Watson (14:28.502)
Yeah, yeah.

Ahmad (14:39.423)
Both camps tend to agree that COVID or any pandemic is not possible in the natural world. Neither, and either is an engineered clone virus that was sprayed in certain areas as a result of toxins and mass psychogenic illness. This would account for the concentration of infection in certain areas. I mean, it’s not, it’s very plausible. Um, and then she goes, um, you’ve probably come across these people, blah, as of, Oh God, it’s a long email. Um, sorry for the dump. I love researching.

so I have really enjoyed looking into this best Zoe. Oh, and this is what she said. I will subscribe more as soon as payday comes. Thank you for everything you do. The sacrifices you have made are very high, but you are on the right side of this fight. You are saving lives by making… Thanks, man. You are saving lives by making people aware of the truth in a time when few are speaking up. I know it’s not surgery.

Nigel Watson (15:21.002)
Yeah, yeah big time Can I just say thank you as well to you?

Ahmad (15:36.887)
but sometimes our paths lead elsewhere and this is vital work. The very survival of our children depends on it. Sorry if that sounds dramatic, but the world is in dire straits at the moment and we need strong courageous people like you and the others which are refusing to be silenced. And it goes on, and I’m just saying, you get messages like that, and I get about 10 of those a day, mate. And I’m like, I’m on the right track. I must be doing something right.

Nigel Watson (16:06.206)
The big man upstairs is also noticing what you’re doing. So in the Bible, they talk about, Jesus talks about the narrow gate and the broad gate. And most people go in through the broad gate, which is his path of least resistance, which basically means enjoying their creature comforts. So you know lots of people like that who chose the broad gate, who chose to sell their souls.

Ahmad (16:10.999)
Thanks for watching!

Ahmad (16:26.743)

Nigel Watson (16:34.442)
Return for a few materialistic trinkets and a bit of status and then there’s the narrow gate Which you’ve chosen and I like to think I chose as well, which means giving up ego status materialism Working hours, I’ve probably lost half a million quid which probably is a lot less than you know when I Choked it in I was 56. So

Ahmad (16:44.511)

Nigel Watson (17:01.738)
I’d have kept going for another 10 years at least. So, and I’m persona non grata now in terms of writing things, magazine articles and books and whatever.

Nigel Watson (17:17.186)
But as I said before, I certainly felt I had no choice. I had to do it. And I surprised myself really just, there were times where I just had to be like, brave and I just, there wasn’t an issue of a decision. It was just like, I have to do this. And that’s it. And people respect it. People respect it.

Ahmad (17:24.117)

Ahmad (17:39.691)
Yeah, no, I think you’re doing amazing.

I mean, I want you to see, I mean, if you want to talk about any of these things, I mean, you’re so prolific on your YouTube videos and I’m really grateful you send them to me on my telegram. I’m not going to lie. I don’t watch all of them. I probably watch half of them because I’m so busy, but I do love them. And I love this crunching on the snow as you walk. You know, you’ve talked about our human rights, progressive, the normalization of criminality. And somebody is trying to shut me up. More amazing things have happened. How do we collapse their system?

Nigel Watson (17:56.61)
Bye. Yeah, yeah.

Nigel Watson (18:01.45)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Ahmad (18:13.803)
a demoralization, Psyop, you may not have noticed. Tell me about that one. And then the normalization of criminality, because those are two that I haven’t seen. What do you mean by this kind of stuff?

Nigel Watson (18:21.775)
Okay, okay.

Nigel Watson (18:26.294)
So what was the first one again, Armand?

Ahmad (18:28.863)
The first one, you were talking about a demoralization Psi-op you may not have noticed.

Nigel Watson (18:32.962)
Oh yeah, okay, okay. Right, so it’s just something that I’ve noticed. I used to play a lot of sport when I was sort of too old to do that, some cricket and football basically. So I started watching a lot of sport. I go and watch ice hockey now. And what I’ve noticed is there’s this thing called VAR. I don’t know if you’re aware of that. It’s like a video, it’s like a third umpire.

referee where they can go for a referral and Basically what they’re doing with that is fixing games with it. It’s a lot of very strange decisions being made and I think many Professional sports now have been run for the benefit of well gambling and then the second one would be to just Rub people’s faces in it because some of the these kind of mistakes are so blatant

Ahmad (19:04.861)

Ahmad (19:13.054)

Nigel Watson (19:29.506)
but they can’t be mistakes. It’s like they’re telling the stupid plebs that they’re watching, they’re paying to watch something that’s just corrupt. So that’s the demoral, and my solution to that, again, is to go local, to go and watch amateur sport, get involved with local clubs and the local community, go and watch something authentic that’s not been subjected to a corporate takeover.

Ahmad (19:29.768)

Ahmad (19:58.575)
Yeah, that’s a really good point. I mean, I’m trying to do everything like that. I don’t consume the news anymore. You know, I found out about the Yemen bombing because I was speaking to one of my supporters and they’re like, yeah, you know, I can’t believe Britain bombed Yemen. And I was like, what? What? And, you know, so it does mean sometimes I’m a bit out of date when it comes to news, but I don’t want to give them my time or my money. You know, because even though I’m not giving the news direct money.

Nigel Watson (20:19.458)

Nigel Watson (20:24.492)

Ahmad (20:25.439)
The fact is advertising revenue or whatever the clicks, I don’t want to give them anything. You know, I don’t even bother going online and checking the Guardian or whatever. It’s all filth, it’s all garbage, and I just don’t want to know. And you know, buy local.

Nigel Watson (20:30.54)

Nigel Watson (20:37.554)
Yeah. Well, what I used to say to the students is with that is use it as a contra indicator. So whatever they’re saying, assume that the truth is the opposite. It’s a bit like NHS healthy eating advice. So whatever they say is healthy, just reverse it and that’ll be the truth. And you know, you can laugh at that, but it’s actually true. It’s certainly in the case of NHS healthy eating advice.

Ahmad (20:50.474)

Ahmad (20:59.099)
100% I had

Ahmad (21:03.335)
No, no, you’ve nailed it. Like, I don’t know if you saw my… Yeah, I don’t… You’re 100% right. I don’t know if…

Nigel Watson (21:08.542)
In fact, I was going to ask you about somebody who has, sorry, somebody I respect massively is Asim Malhotra, who often gets called out by people, oh, he’s controlled opposition. These people, again, they haven’t done their homework because they don’t know about all the work that Asim Malhotra did on busting statins. Because I think statins have been killing millions of people and causing stuff like dementia. And it is…

There’s no link between cholesterol and heart disease, according to Aseem Malhotra, and I’ll go with him, thank you very much. And he suffered because he spoke the truth.

Ahmad (21:50.607)
Yeah, my, my go to people are Zoe Harkham and Malcolm McKendrick. And I was saying about the NHS food guide. If you, if you’ve listened to my Zoe Harkham podcast, it was incredible. And she talks about the food pyramid and everything. And it’s exactly what you said. It’s complete inversion of it. Whatever they say, don’t follow their guidelines, you know, low fat, no meat, no red meat, but then indoctrination then goes.

Nigel Watson (22:12.63)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ahmad (22:16.587)
deep and hard. My mom just had a heart attack and I’m trying to tell her to change her diet, get her on a keto diet and everything. And she’s like, no, you’re gonna kill me. I need low fat. I need no, I can’t have butter. I can’t have cream. I need skimmed milk. I don’t wanna eat meat. And I was like, mom, but that’s been your diet and look where it’s led you. No, no, the cardiac nurse told me, I was like, what did the cardiac nurse look like, by the way? Just a…

Nigel Watson (22:32.982)

Nigel Watson (22:44.916)
Yeah, yeah.

Ahmad (22:45.259)
curiosity. Did she look healthy? Oh no, her thighs were like this big, like the size of your waist. Each thigh, she was so big she barely could sit in the chair. I went, hold on, and what advice was she giving you? She was saying, oh you need low fat and don’t eat red meat and don’t eat butter. I went, and how did that work out for her? And look at your son. You’re complaining that I use butter and fat and meat.

Nigel Watson (22:48.438)
Big unit. Yeah.

Nigel Watson (22:54.438)

Ahmad (23:11.423)
And how do I look? She goes, you look great. I went, how about my wife? How does she look? Oh, your wife looks amazing. And yeah.

Nigel Watson (23:14.894)
So let’s break this down, yeah? Let’s break this down. So you can either choose to have something that’s made in a factory, that’s in a plastic pot, or you can have something butter that’s made from cow’s milk and a bit of salt that’s been made for thousands of years. Like which ones are healthier? I remember I broke my finger playing cricket like, I don’t know, about seven years ago, something like that.

Ahmad (23:34.24)

Nigel Watson (23:42.586)
and I went into the A&E, that’s the only thing I use NHS for these days by the way, is um, and I couldn’t believe it, it was like Burger King inside! I think there was like WH Smiths selling like triangle sandwiches with seed oil mayonnaise and loads of junk chocolate and crisps and what?! In a hospital?!

Ahmad (24:09.911)
Unfortunately, yes.

Nigel Watson (24:11.39)

Ahmad (24:13.695)
Yeah. I mean, I don’t know about you, but I walk now through hostels and streets and malls and airport lounges and I just see the poison everywhere. I just see seed oils, highly processed carbohydrates, sugar, E numbers, preservatives, and it’s all toxic. And I see poison and other people are gorging on it, feeding on it. And they’re big and they’re

Nigel Watson (24:28.727)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Ahmad (24:43.667)
munching it all down and I just think it’s all poison. It’s addictive. Addictive poison. And then the parents, every school pickup, I’ll hear a parent go, hey, so do you wanna go, should we go to McDonald’s for a treat? I’m like, yeah, hi, little kids. I’m gonna give you a little bit of poison today.

Nigel Watson (24:44.406)
Yeah, yeah. It’s addictive, isn’t it? Yeah, addictive poison.

Nigel Watson (25:02.674)
No, it’s but again, it’s a it goes back to self It goes back to personal responsibility, doesn’t it?

Ahmad (25:11.263)
Yeah, it does.

Nigel Watson (25:12.298)
Like UWT.

Ahmad (25:15.421)

Nigel Watson (25:16.278)
I’ve cut out mayonnaise. You know, I try my best. Like I’ll eat, sometimes I’ll eat a cake if it’s been home cooked by somebody. But you know, when I’m good, I won’t even bother with that. But people have to learn to take responsibility for their own lives again. But you know, going back to what we said about taxes and stuff, you know, like, could you imagine how, what changed?

Ahmad (25:36.404)
And it’s such-

Nigel Watson (25:43.586)
there would be if you had a tax rate of five or 10%. I’ll tell you something that will blow your mind. You know in Russia they have this thing called a flat rate of tax. So everybody pays the same tax rate. 13%, one, three.

Ahmad (25:47.525)
100% I’m gonna

Ahmad (26:00.083)

Nigel Watson (26:02.794)
Russia is more free market than the UK. 13% flat rate of tax in Russia. So you’re rewarding enterprise, you’re rewarding people who are prepared to do things of value for other people to voluntarily opt into.

Ahmad (26:02.975)

Ahmad (26:23.767)
That’s what we need. So before we go back to taxation, can I quickly talk about the food? And so, you’re talking about delayed gratification. I’ll give an example. It’s not just spending power, buying things. Take food, for example. I do intermittent fasting every day. So on average, I fast 20 hours. I am hungry right now, but I’m choosing not to have a biscuit with my coffee. I don’t eat biscuits.

Nigel Watson (26:26.292)
Yeah, it is.

Nigel Watson (26:32.971)

Nigel Watson (26:42.029)

Nigel Watson (26:47.053)

Nigel Watson (26:50.295)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ahmad (26:50.367)
But what I’m trying to say is I’m not having a snack now because I’m hungry, I woke up. I’m used to living with hunger. And then at 20 hours, I will have one meal. And actually that delayed eating is incredibly healthy. It’s so powerful. Anti-aging boosts your immune system, makes you happier, gets rid of your insulin resistance, reverses your diabetes, makes you build muscle.

Nigel Watson (26:54.305)

Nigel Watson (27:08.479)


Ahmad (27:17.691)
And as a man, you don’t want to lose your muscle and all that kind of stuff. And there’s so many good, good things about just delaying. And if you look at all religions, they all talk about the benefits of fasting. So I just thought I’d put that in there, that fasting and delayed gratification, all aspects are good.

Nigel Watson (27:18.218)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no.

Nigel Watson (27:29.078)

No, I agree. I agree. I’ve been trying to do some of that myself Oh, but i’ve been trying to do some of that. Um, so i’ve not had anything to this Well 12 o’clock our time now and i’ve not had anything to eat today I’ve just had these two glasses of water and add some lemon juice and honey because my throat was a bit scratchy, but Yeah

Ahmad (27:36.639)
How’s that? How’s that working out?

Ahmad (27:47.519)

Honey, honey, no, because that’ll elicit the response. But next time, if you want fast, don’t have the honey, just lemon water. Anyway, so going back to taxation, I mean, I did some math in my head and tell me if I’m wrong, but I kind of calculated by the time, you know, you start earning money, you’ve paid your income tax, your national insurance tax, your council tax, your value added tax, your corporation tax, your pension, the tax on the pension, the tax on your,

Nigel Watson (27:55.214)
Oh, okay, okay. Yeah.

Nigel Watson (28:12.879)
Oh man, oh man, oh man, oh man.

Ahmad (28:19.895)
capital gains tax, anything that you’ve made profit on, your inheritance tax, pretty much you’re left with 5% of whatever you earned. Everything’s been stolen from you. If you taught it all up.

Nigel Watson (28:30.634)
Yeah, if you were to tot it all up. Yeah, that would be a marginal rate of tax. You know, that because there’ll be some people who come on and try and debunk it. But basically what you’re talking about is that if you were to earn an extra pound, 95 pence of it will be stolen from you by the government and you’d get to keep five feet. And yeah, it could. Yeah, 100%. I used to be like a humble like teacher, head of department.

Ahmad (28:50.743)
Am I right though? Have I- have I- is that-

Nigel Watson (29:00.454)
My marginal rate of income tax was 40 plus another 10 national insurance Then you’ve got 20 vat when you spend the money, then you’ve got excise duties Oh, man. Yeah that yeah Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah

Ahmad (29:09.175)
cancel tax, excise, fuel duty, fuel duties, everything.

If we aren’t serfs then what are we? If that’s not serfdom… I don’t know what is…

Nigel Watson (29:24.122)
Oh and don’t forget there’s the debt slavery on top of that where they have this monetary system where they’re able to lend money into existence and get you to pay interest on it.

Ahmad (29:36.682)

Nigel Watson (29:37.09)
What’s good is that 10 years ago, no one knew that. But I think through podcasts like yours, me doing a bit of YouTubing, many, many other people, that people are understanding what this kind of fear debt-based monetary system that we have actually is.

Ahmad (29:57.483)
Okay, 100%. I’ve got two last questions for you. So what I would wanna ask you is, what would be your top advice to households in terms of protecting their finances and their freedom? That’s the first question.

Nigel Watson (29:58.894)
But yeah Yeah

Nigel Watson (30:12.41)
Okay, two questions to write so in terms of finances what again what I would say is From an Austrian perspective we have you know, the importance of subjective values. So my choices are based on my Subjective preferences, so I’m very much I’m not interested in materialism. I’m more of a safety first type of guy and I like you

I’ve never really been into debt. A lot of people laughed at me for years and years and years because I refused to take out a bigger mortgage and play the property Ponzi game. You had Mitch Firestein on. His book, Planet Ponzi is brilliant. It’s absolutely super. So what I would say, my own personal preference, this is just, is avoid debt. If you do have to get in debt, pay down that debt as rapidly as possible.

If I was talking to somebody young, my number one advice would be consider university very carefully because of the student loan system. Like, I used to teach it, I used to do a session with the six formers, an hour session where I would go through it and I would put some numbers up on a PowerPoint slide and just show them how it worked.

Ahmad (31:19.809)

Nigel Watson (31:36.334)
because it’s inflation adjusted as well and unpaid interest is added onto the total amount of debt. And then there’d always be people that say, oh, well, they write off the loan at 60 or whatever it was. But then the problem is, is that you can’t trust these people because they’ve got a habit of changing the goalposts like with those WASPI pensioner women, where they were, and then they say, oh, sorry, we’ve changed our mind. This being an emergency. And if you’re in hock to the government, they’ve got…

Ahmad (31:51.499)

Ahmad (31:57.161)

Nigel Watson (32:05.934)
They’ve got control over you. So for me, if I was 18, I’m not sure whether I’d go to university in England because of the like some rip off and they don’t get taught properly. I don’t know if you’ve yeah, I know people that did ex students, they’d come back and have lunch with them. They used to come into school and they would have lunch and would sit down and chew the fat history at Exeter. They have like

Ahmad (32:12.023)

Ahmad (32:17.448)

Nigel Watson (32:34.61)
like six hours let a contact time a week and then for the last term they had hard they didn’t even have that and they’re being charged over nine grand they’re hardly being taught it’s like and then you’ve got the issue of like we’re living in a different world now what use is an english degree history degree politics degree geography degree especially with

Ahmad (32:46.512)

Ahmad (32:59.915)

Nigel Watson (33:04.994)
So, you know, for me personally, I would, it’s very difficult to give advice because it’s gonna vary from one person to another. Like if you were, oh, I don’t know, six foot.

Ahmad (33:13.655)

Nigel Watson (33:19.702)
I don’t know, two meters or whatever, you’re a big strapping guy and you’ve got a desire to help people, then you might wanna, I don’t know, why not be a fireman or something? But again, do something useful with your life. That’s another thing that I would say, to be truly free, to be free from mental turmoil, free from that. Do something useful with your life here.

Ahmad (33:46.347)
Mmm. Now I like that.

Nigel Watson (33:48.434)
And don’t go for the oh, um, you know, oh i’m gonna do that because like I used to know a gp And as soon as he as soon as he was able to put Dr dj mullen on his credit card. He did it And he would love it flashing it, you know in the supermarket Going I used to go. Um Nightclubbing with him and you know Girls would come oh, what do you do and he would like literally he would grow

He puffed his chest out and he go, I’m a doctor Um, I don’t think that brings your happiness mate don’t bring your happiness Especially now Well, you know to be honest with you what i’ve learned is that the nhs has been a shambles They’ve been bumping off. They bumped off my dad I didn’t know it at the time because I was a fool and I still trusted them

Ahmad (34:22.388)

Ahmad (34:26.388)

Ahmad (34:41.649)
Thanks for watching!

Ahmad (34:45.039)
Yeah. Me too.

Nigel Watson (34:46.262)
But they’ve been doing that, you know, for the greater social good. Oh, he needs to, you know, his time’s come. Let’s give him a good death. I didn’t know. I do. I couldn’t, he had dementia. I reckon a lot of that was caused by the statins he was on and like huge. He was on like, I don’t know, six or seven different tablets every night, but he trusted the system too.

Ahmad (35:10.496)

Nigel Watson (35:12.01)
And if there’s a good thing that’s come out of this is that there’s many more of us now who just don’t trust these. Again, I’m not going to swear, but you know, quite a strong, I don’t know what’s, yeah, the C word might be appropriate.

Ahmad (35:27.679)
So two things there. Yeah, two things there. So the student loans when they started, I remember they were just at the box when I was a medical student, 1993, and at the time it was very capped. There was no student tuition fees. You just had student loans if you wanted to support yourself. So education was still free at that point. And then they said there’ll be no interest, and it’s a government company, student loan company.

Nigel Watson (35:29.02)

Nigel Watson (35:47.774)

Ahmad (35:55.447)
it’s owned by the government and there’s no interest on it. And then by the time I left, it was like, oh, now there’s gonna be interest, but it’s gonna be tagged at inflation. And then it was like, oh, but now you have to be linked. Now you have to pay tuition fees as well as your maintenance. So it’s not just student maintenance, that’s the tuition fees. And now it’s gonna be a private company, they’ve sold it to a private company and the interest rates are gonna be market rates.

Nigel Watson (35:59.202)

Nigel Watson (36:07.37)
Yeah, RPI linked.

Ahmad (36:24.371)
And so what I’m trying to say is what you said about the goalpost shifting. Yeah, a hundred percent. I’ve seen it in front of me. Absolutely. And what shocks me is people are coming out now, you know, you’re talking about what to do, um, my kids go to jujitsu with, you know, we, I go to jujitsu and kickboxing and one of the instructors, there’s only about 23 or 24. And I said, did you go to university? He went, nah. I mean, what, what did you do? You went, I was 16. I’m very good at kickboxing and I’ve been coming to this gym for years. I thought I’d become a kickboxing personal trainer instructor.

Nigel Watson (36:29.726)
Yeah, you can’t trust them.

Ahmad (36:52.819)
I went, good for you. And I went, how much do you earn a year? If you don’t mind me asking, you went 60 grand. I was 60,000 pounds. You went, yeah, I’m good at it. Clients love me. They love chatting to me. And I’ve got a good work ethic.

Nigel Watson (37:04.763)
No one’s forcing them, he’s obviously doing a good job and he’s offering his customers value for money.

Ahmad (37:09.277)
He’s doing a great job and you know what, he’s got no debt. And he goes, all my mates went to university, they’ve got 60,000 pounds in debt and they’re making 25,000 pounds a year working in Starbucks or whatever.

Nigel Watson (37:25.807)

Ahmad (37:27.087)
And you just think, wow, this guy switched on.

Nigel Watson (37:30.942)
Yeah, some. The video that I did that got most views, like 200,000 views nearly, was one that I did about intelligence because as a former teacher, I think we do not understand intelligence.

or we misattribute intelligence to people who have got, who are great repeater stations, all they’ve got is a good memory and they can just, they have no moral compulsion in spewing out other people’s arguments and then passing them off as their own. And they’re incapable of independent critical thinking. So it’s no surprise to me that the repeater stations were the ones that got conned. Whereas I know.

Ahmad (38:03.703)

Ahmad (38:09.195)
as doctors.

Nigel Watson (38:17.698)
You know the people that I know who didn’t get cons, you know, there was a come up with his name was knows one of the groundsmen at school. He like sort of straight through it. Still have the cleaner did. Uh, who else? These two brothers that I know that used to play cricket with. Um, you know, they do, um, used to do work related to golf courses and maybe tree surgery, whatever. These people.

It’s very easy for people who have got university degrees to like look down their noses at them. Like if you’re doing that, you’re stupid because these people, they are inclined to ask questions. They will want to try to work things out from first principles. They won’t just accept. They don’t do this deferring to authority, you know, where they look up and it’s like, oh, what does the person above me in the hierarchy say?

Ahmad (38:57.472)

Ahmad (39:01.931)

Nigel Watson (39:13.718)
what do they want me to repeat? And this is what particularly GPs, they just follow these health protocols and they don’t do any thinking for themselves. And they just, a lot of them, well, all of them are cowards in that they must’ve known what they were doing was wrong. It made no sense, but they just kept on doing it because they were in love with their ego, with their materialism, their status.

Ahmad (39:20.736)

Ahmad (39:42.763)

Nigel Watson (39:42.998)
uh brand new jaguar for doing the for injecting people um I don’t talk to I used to I went to school with this guy like oh I’ll piss on him if he was on fire to be honest yeah but he’s got to live with himself he’s got to live with himself he’s got to live with himself and the truth will come out

Ahmad (39:59.827)
Well, so listen, I think part of the problem is…

Ahmad (40:09.163)
I think another thing we need to do is we need to stop putting people on pedestals. And what I mean by that is whether it’s doctors, celebrities, politicians, we are the ones that put them on that pedestal. We need to stop doing that. We need to stop doing that because it’s a form of idol worshipping. We need to stop worshipping these people and treat everyone as an equal. So I always say there’s no one above me and there’s no one below me.

Nigel Watson (40:17.63)

Nigel Watson (40:28.432)
Yeah, of course it is. Of course it is. Yeah.

Ahmad (40:38.559)
You know, I don’t act like I’m better than anyone. And I, yeah, and I don’t act like I’m in fear to anyone, you know, and you may have noticed a recent podcast I’ve done and I’m not going to name names, but I came to him as an equal and he did not like that. He didn’t like that. He found that very insulting. He wanted me to fawn over him. He wanted me to be a sycophant. And I didn’t do that.

Nigel Watson (40:40.01)
Yeah, treat people as you find them.

Nigel Watson (40:48.287)

Nigel Watson (40:53.494)
You don’t need to. No.

Nigel Watson (41:04.818)
he wanted you let’s armored let’s get this right he wanted you to obediently repeat his lies he wanted you to repeat two plus two equals five he wanted you to repeat things that were blatantly untrue like fuck sorry I’m not gonna swear screw you screw you I’m not I’m not I’m not gonna do it I remember another time I had it is another football injury like a cartilage injury I

Ahmad (41:23.179)
Frack, frack, frack.

Nigel Watson (41:34.302)
Tried to go through the NHS and because I could still walk and still road It’s a little problem with our change direction quickly with studs on and stuff like that little bit of cartilage needed shaving off So I went and saw this Finally get into the system after waiting ages turn up at Croydon Mayday Hospital And I thought I was just gonna go and see him like talk to the geezer have a chat

I’m treated like the brown stuff that dogs do, you know He’s seeing all these private patients and he’s just treating me offhand like leaving me waiting. So guess what I did Just stood up and left screw you. I’m not I’m not having I’m not having you Like trying to control me or like treating me like dirt No, I’m not. I’m not having that. I don’t care

Ahmad (42:23.711)
That’s right.

Nigel Watson (42:29.386)
I don’t care, I’ll say things to people. I don’t care, I’ll speak the truth. If that hurts them or whatever, I don’t care. Just speak the truth.

Ahmad (42:42.835)
Amen to that. Right, final question, my friend.

Nigel Watson (42:45.966)
I found a lot of doctors like that. A lot of doctors like that. Some of them were very good, but a lot of them, I remember another time some guy trying to get me onto statins, he was like some locum. And all the way through the consultation, guess what he was doing? And I’m not joking, he was fiddling with these Porsche car keys, which were out on the table in front of both of us. It’s like.

Ahmad (43:14.984)
Uh, listen, again…

Nigel Watson (43:17.123)
His intention achieved the exact opposite. I just went out there thinking you are a, you, like no. Sorry, mate.

Ahmad (43:22.999)
Okay, so, so I’ve talked about this mate. I’ve talked about how my profession, I’m really embarrassed by the degree of arrogance, professional hubris, gaslighting, and it’s wrong. And the fact we’ve forgotten our medical ethics or we never had them in the first place. And it’s a real shame, it’s a real shame. And maybe that’s why I’m not

Nigel Watson (43:42.399)

Ahmad (43:52.839)
a surgeon anymore, maybe that’s why I’m not a doctor anymore because I actually just don’t belong. I just don’t belong there.

Nigel Watson (43:56.03)
yeah it’s the same in teaching different problems but same in teaching i couldn’t go back and work in a in a private school even let alone a state one not in england

Ahmad (44:01.899)
I don’t belong there. I don’t… Yeah.

Yeah, I just can’t identify with it anymore. I just really can’t. And it is what it is, my friend. You know, we can’t change these things, but I like the fact that you’ve got pride in yourself.

Nigel Watson (44:18.262)
But on a positive note, what we can do, I’m continuing to teach through YouTube. You’re doing your podcasts, spreading the truth. So we, yeah. Yeah.

Ahmad (44:26.579)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I love it.

I love it. So listen, the final question is, you’re on your deathbed and you’re going to be, you’ve lived a long, long life. Before you pass on and meet your maker, what advice, health or otherwise, would you give your family and loved ones?

Nigel Watson (44:36.3)

Nigel Watson (44:44.206)
Three words, speak the truth.

Ahmad (44:51.187)
Man, I’m sure you’re gonna add to that though. I can’t stop recording there.

Nigel Watson (44:55.158)
Well, okay. Okay. Let’s let’s give some examples. So what if you’re a doctor say and somebody’s talking about a deadly pandemic? I remember this GP when the when the people’s pantomime started in March 2020 I actually phone this guy up. He goes, Oh, don’t worry. It’s like it’s a coronavirus. You know, it’s like it’s what we call a common cold that and rhino virus. Don’t worry about it.

if it happens i’ll just have a bit of time off you know i won’t i’m not worried about catching it uh so i said to him what about masks he says ah no wasted time useless uh do more harm than good right so then of course he gets the uh the edicts from above and he’s he changes his position he refuses to speak the truth to this day

Ahmad (45:30.143)

Ahmad (45:49.747)

Nigel Watson (45:52.002)
So I asked him about when the injections first came around, how can these have been tested properly? So the correct answer is to speak the truth. Well, no, they haven’t been tested properly. So yeah, I think speak the truth to people. Like in relationships, don’t tell people things that they want to, that you think that they wanna hear. Tell them the truth, have integrity.

Ahmad (45:58.239)

Ahmad (46:03.721)

Ahmad (46:20.636)
Yeah. Toonoo!

Nigel Watson (46:20.95)
Look, another thing, I’ve talked a bit about free market economics, yeah?

Ahmad (46:25.865)

Nigel Watson (46:27.542)
You’ve got trades between people who’ve voluntarily entered into those trades. Can you see how trust is essential? If you don’t trust somebody, you are not going to enter into an exchange with that person. So trust is an important, a very, very important cultural asset that affects material prosperity, let alone non-material prosperity.

Ahmad (46:36.416)

Ahmad (46:43.624)

Ahmad (46:54.74)

Nigel Watson (46:57.09)
Finland’s a great example of a high trust society. So things work here, it’s not an accident. Like for example, if I get somebody around, I’ve had new heating systems put in here and various things done. Every single time I’ve had somebody in, there’s been a quote, and then when the bill comes, guess what, Ahmed, the amount that’s payable is less.

Ahmad (47:24.422)
It’s the right price.

Nigel Watson (47:27.582)
No, it’s less. It’s been less People take great pride in speaking the truth Especially like where I am in Porry, you know, there’s a bit of a you know, we’re can be Known as being a little bit Forthright and abrupt or whatever, but I’d much rather have that Somebody doesn’t like it just like explain why they don’t like you and then you can have a chat about it and get it out in the open

Ahmad (47:29.16)
Oh wow, wow.

Ahmad (47:50.036)

Nigel Watson (47:56.802)
Things don’t fester. Speak the truth. That’s what I would say. Don’t, don’t. And then the other thing as well is, you know how you get talking about, you know, the various consultants that I saw through sporting injuries and stuff. Some of them are, they’re a bull thingamajigs. They just like make false claims, big their own egos up. They’re not telling the truth. They live, they’re.

Ahmad (48:01.076)
I love them.

Nigel Watson (48:25.59)
Their whole identity is a lie.

Ahmad (48:29.367)

Nigel Watson (48:30.558)
same as the social justice people who think that they’re really great people who care about human rights. They’re not speaking the truth because that’s not what they really think.

Ahmad (48:37.48)

Ahmad (48:41.215)
Can I quickly say something Nigel? So the problem is definitely one, people not speaking the truth. And the example you give of consultants and doctors not really explaining things properly to their patients and being honest with them. Unfortunately, it also goes the other way around. We’ve got people, we’ve got for example, patients who are enamored and impressed by the liars and the fakers. They’re impressed by the guy who’s got the Porsche keys.

Nigel Watson (48:44.674)

Ahmad (49:10.151)
Oh, he must be a really good doctor. They’re impressed by the confidence and the ego and they, they don’t actually do any critical thinking and they don’t realize that what they’re doing is a form of idol worshiping. You shouldn’t have these idols that you worship. Do you know what? Just stop that. Stand tall in your own presence. Be proud of yourself. Love yourself. Respect yourself.

Nigel Watson (49:11.414)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Nigel Watson (49:27.694)
know yeah well you yeah if you yeah well that comes from speaking the truth doesn’t it if you know that you’re not trying to pull the wool over people’s eyes and your word counts for something and your promise if you make promises they count for something things are really big on that you know their word like really matters if they say they’re gonna do

Ahmad (49:40.148)

Nigel Watson (49:57.09)
they do it. But I encountered the opposite, you know, I encountered bad things going on in teaching. It’s not just medicine. You know, you’d have teachers at parents evening and the student might be like tossing it off, not working hard enough. And the parents would say, oh, she needs to get like two A’s and a B to get into Durham to read blah, blah. Will she get it? And you know what a lot of character teachers say.

oh yeah it’s all fine, it’s all fine, blah blah, get the parent out of the room. Whereas the moral course of action is to speak the truth.

Ahmad (50:32.903)
Yes. Yeah. 100%.

Nigel Watson (50:37.282)
So can you see what I’m saying? Speak the truth might not sound particularly profound, but if you actually dig deep down, it’s probably the most important thing.

Ahmad (50:50.387)
Love it. Listen, Nigel, thank you so much for spending, yeah, thank you for spending so much time. You, you know, I really enjoyed this conversation. You’re a good egg. You really are a good egg. And I’ll point everyone.

Nigel Watson (50:52.17)
Have some integrity. You’re welcome buddy.

Nigel Watson (51:02.583)
And you are we’ve spoken we’ve spoken off there haven’t we yeah, you’re a good egg man

Ahmad (51:06.535)
Yeah. And we’ll keep in touch. If I’m ever in Finland, I’ll find you.

Nigel Watson (51:12.298)

Nigel Watson (51:16.318)
Yeah, yeah, no for sure. Yeah, well if I come to England, I’ll tell you where I am and yeah, you want a coffee?

Ahmad (51:19.595)
God bless.

Ahmad (51:25.331)
Yeah, swing by my place. I’ve got great coffee.

Nigel Watson (51:30.802)
Okay, okay that’s enough then.

Ahmad (51:32.255)
All right, buddy. Thanks.

Nigel Watson (51:34.763)
All right.